TWCL

[mooncity]

I feel I must point out that while yes, newspapers are tanking, it does not necessarily follow that the syndicates are or will. People forget they do not just represent comic strips, but columns, articles, and puzzles, etc. So even if every paper were to die tomorrow, the syndies wouldn't go belly up right away. They'll find a way to deliver content, whether it's in the paper or on the net. True, they're sort of tied to the papers, but they can cut those ties if they ever needed to.
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Mooncity
Reversing the polarity of the neutron flow since 1976!


The comic strip that never was.

[zaymac]

I'm actually looking forward to seeing who the finalists are going to be for this contest. Because I just can't picture someone submitting a strip that they genuinely care about.

It will more than likely end up being a bunch of secondary strips that creators sent in just to "give it a go", so to speak.

And if you're submitting a strip that you don't really care about, ultimately it will suffer in the end.

It just sounds like a whole lotta work, compared to very little pay, just to have your work see print. I'd rather spend that time focusing on more updates for my own webcomic and trying to grow that, rather than partake in this.

But I can understand how someone could view this as an "opportunity". I was a young naïve cartoonist myself once. Now I'm jaded and cynical. Grrrrr.
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[James Sawatsky]

I'm still in. I've stated many times that my draw for getting into strips was the newspapers. I love seeing my stuff in print. And seeing it in a book that I didn't self-publish? AWESOME!!!

$300/month seems, to you, pretty chintzy. But, it's $300/month more than I'm getting with 67th Avenue. The exposure will generate traffic to 67th Avenue, which is my true love comic. I wouldn't give any control of 67th Avenue over to a syndicate, but a fun idea that I came up with just for this? Sure! If I win: wonderful. If I lose: I could still be picked up.

Someone said that real artists don't do contests... I draw funny pictures and try to make money on it. $5k sounds good to me. I can upgrade my freakin tablet. Maybe a Cintiq.

I've submitted 67th Avenue a couple of times for syndication and was rejected. They said it wasn't original enough. So, it would be a huge accomplishment for me to do well in the competition...

[zaymac]

Listen, I'm not gonna knock anyone for doing this, but even though it's treated as a "contest", the contract is real.

Meaning, if you agree to the deal with the syndicate to produce 200 strips, you'd better be able to do it. There's no freedom for burnout or hiatuses like you have when producing your own webcomic. Not trying to be a jerk, just saying.

So, when you are under the gun trying to produce these strips, what's more of your attention going to be focused on? Your webcomic that you produce for nothing, or the comic that you signed a commitment to produce.

If I only worked part-time or was unemployed, maybe this wouldn't be so difficult. But working Full-time would just add a great deal amount of stress, just for very little reward in my opinion.

Another point, I hardly doubt they will let you cross promote your webcomic either. So I don't know how much extra traffic you"ll generate by winning this contest.
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[mooncity]

zaymac wrote:

Another point, I hardly doubt they will let you cross promote your webcomic either. So I don't know how much extra traffic you"ll generate by winning this contest.

Excellent point. All of the webcomics that made it to syndication (except Diesel Sweeties), had to suspend most if not all activity on their own website for the comic. Bleeker, Dog Eats Doug, etc.
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Mooncity
Reversing the polarity of the neutron flow since 1976!


The comic strip that never was.

[James Sawatsky]

But, that comic itself went to syndication. I'm just thinking, if my name is out there, it could be googled thus leading them to 67th Avenue.

My burn out related more to the fact that it's been 3 years of the same stuff and I needed time to reformulate what I wanted to do.

20 b/w comics a month, if planned properly, is rather doable.

Of course, if I can't get the minimum together for the entry, it's all moot. When was the competition announced anyway? They didn't seem to give much time...

[cdrcjsn]

Iron Spike wrote:

Small-time cartoonists can't afford to give away the slice of the cake syndicates and publishers take for themselves. Going with representation makes the Sisyphean slope to success steeper, not easier.

And this is where you can make a deal. Only the first book and development deal are non-negotiable. Everything else is. Let the syndicates handle the retail stores, newspapers, and other outlets that is very difficult to get to without representation and you retain the rights to set up your website, go to cons, sell merch and do all the things that independent webcomic folks do that isn't worth it for a syndicate. Win-win.

Quote:

cdrcjsn wrote: But you're right, people don't actually need syndicates to make a living. But I think it's a mistake to dismiss everything that syndicates offer just because it's a syndicate. No organization that's floundering for a way to stay relevant as badly as a comic strip syndicate has anything to offer me that I wouldn't be better off doing for myself.

Newspapers are dying. That's not the same as syndicates, which are basically talent agencies for cartoonists.

Universal's merge with Uclick shows that they're taking the online challenge seriously. This partnership with Amazon is a business move that speaks well of their future outlook. If Amazon's Kindle manages to take over what newspapers used to provide, then they're well situated to provide content to it.

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This isn't Project Greenlight, where you submit a script and the next thing you know a movie studio is buying you an Irish pub and producing your expensive, million-dollar film. This is a syndicate looking to "reward" you with a $5,000 ADVANCE against future sales (and make no mistake, advances can be called back) and pay you $300.00 for twenty strips a month, limitless re-dos implied and assumed. That's horse shit pay, and it's all non-negotiable. And they seriously expect you to buy in. Is that really what you think your stuff's worth?

How much does a beginning webcomicker make their first two years? Even the most succesful ones I know of didn't make $7200. And that $7200 is on top of whatever you can make as an independent cartoonist. There's nothing stopping you from selling original art or have a site with ad revenue. That's money on top of whatever you can earn as an independent cartoonist.

The $300 is for 20 strips submitted per month. That's it. If they don't like it, tough. You get paid as long as you submit 20 strips. But the point of the development deal is to work with the artist to hone their craft. You're supposed to do lots of edits.

The book advance is a standard publishing contract. If an independent writer were to approach a publishing house, they can expect similar terms. As for the advance needing to be paid back, that's something that's not an industry standard and can have any of several clauses that can benefit as well as harm. Until we see the contract, it's rather premature to cry wolf.

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cdrcjsn wrote: This isn't Zuda. You're not signing away all the rights to your creation here. Heck, even the book deal they're offering is only first print rights, so depending on the exact wording of the contract you can probably print the same material later by yourself if you want and do the same thing independent webcomickers are doing (i.e. selling at your site and at cons). Yeah, first print rights. With a royalty rate they decide on, that's non-negotiable, and with $5,000 of it advanced to you already as a "grand prize." You don't know your percentage, and you don't know when you'll see your next check.

First print rights.

They publish a book using their own money. If they sell a lot, great. If not, oh well, no loss to you. As for the amount, who cares? That was money from a market that you didn't have access to in the first place. How many independent cartoonists do you know that have their books at Walmart?

You can still print your own book afterwards and sell that at cons.

Quote:

This is not a good deal. The number of variables and amount of wiggle room it affords the syndicate makes it unacceptable.

If I were of the opinion that a syndicate is out to take advantage of creators, then I too would be worried.

But I'm not. All I'm seeing is a standard contract deal packaged along with a marketing gimmick to drum up interest.

Make no mistake though. I agree that there's a lot of room for a syndicate to take advantage. But I don't think they're evil and actively want to screw you over. They're just driven by money, just like any other corporation. As long as you have your eyes open and know what's important to keep, you should be fine and have the potential to be a success (no, winning this contest does not guarantee that you'll be a success).

List of things you should definitely negotiate to keep:
* right to personal website with ads and strip content (can be licensed from gocomics)
* right to act as retailer and sell books and merch from personal site and appearances
* right to print future books as an independent publisher (first print rights can be bargained away for a specific period of time).

If you can keep the above three points, then you're no worse off than an independent webcomic artist.
_________________
www.familiar-ground.com

Vote for Familiar Ground!

[James Sawatsky]

^
|

what he said

[cdrcjsn]

67thavenue wrote:

Of course, if I can't get the minimum together for the entry, it's all moot. When was the competition announced anyway? They didn't seem to give much time...

I think that was on purpose.

Basically the only ones that will be able to put together a package in time are: those that were already in the process of doing so, are able to commit to a schedule of producing a lot of content on short notice, or webcomic folks willing to burn their buffers (or take a hiatus) in order to enter.
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www.familiar-ground.com

Vote for Familiar Ground!

[James Sawatsky]

My problem was coming up with an idea... Developing plot, characters, blah blah blah.

[tpiro]

Well, if nothing else, this contest inspired me to draw the following comic



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[mysticstudiosproduct]

I'm going to pass on this. Basically, the winners of this contest will receive less freedom than they are normally allowed, AND a huge corporation taking money away from you.

I'll keep my freedom, and my money.
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Isaac M. Baranoff, creator of "Horndog" and "Tales of the Unrefined"

[pdonz2]

I might enter this just so that, in case I win, I can videotape myself shredding the contract and lining my cat's litterbox with it and posting said video on youtube.

Yay webcomics! A Pox on syndicates!
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[Iron Spike]

cdrcjsn wrote:

And this is where you can make a deal. Only the first book and development deal are non-negotiable. Everything else is. Let the syndicates handle the retail stores, newspapers, and other outlets that is very difficult to get to without representation and you retain the rights to set up your website, go to cons, sell merch and do all the things that independent webcomic folks do that isn't worth it for a syndicate. Win-win.

My work is in retail stores (comic shops and chain/indie bookstores) and on Amazon, and my only representation is a man I've hired as a sales rep, and two distributors that also work for me, instead of vice-versa. Stores aren't difficult to get into in the slightest, if you have halfway-decent product. You don't need anyone's help to accomplish that.

Quote:

Newspapers are dying. That's not the same as syndicates, which are basically talent agencies for cartoonists.

No, they're not. Syndicates don't get a cut of the proceeds of work they find you; They collect everything and give YOU a cut. Big difference.

And again, I question the usefulness of middlemen desperate to stay relevant. The difference between self-promoting and hoping for syndicate representation is the difference between a smaller audience that supports you completely and a (theoretically) larger audience you can't pay your rent with.

Rich Stevens, author if Diesel Sweeties, experimented with syndicate representation for about a year. He didn't renew his contract with the syndicate, because he was making a better living going it alone.

Quote:

How much does a beginning webcomicker make their first two years? Even the most succesful ones I know of didn't make $7200. And that $7200 is on top of whatever you can make as an independent cartoonist. There's nothing stopping you from selling original art or have a site with ad revenue. That's money on top of whatever you can earn as an independent cartoonist.

I'd like to meet the man who can produce 20 strips and all of their inevitable do-overs a month, PLUS a project on the side large enough to make up for the pay gap Amazon/Universal is building in to this contest. He must have four arms.

And I'll take

A) A less-than-living wage the first year of a webcomic in exchange for an unlimited future of profit with full ownership and creative control

over

B) A less-than-living wage the first year of a newspaper strip and a future under the creative control of a syndicate

any day. And I have.

Quote:

The book advance is a standard publishing contract. If an independent writer were to approach a publishing house, they can expect similar terms. As for the advance needing to be paid back, that's something that's not an industry standard and can have any of several clauses that can benefit as well as harm. Until we see the contract, it's rather premature to cry wolf.

Yeah, a standard BAD publishing contract. The same terms Universal was using back when they were comfortable in their position of power, I don't doubt. Too bad for them, though. Comics isn't prose publishing, and they don't have their headlock on artists anymore.

And calling a non-negotiable contract that calls a retractable advance a reward and considers $300.00 a month "Superstar" pay a load of bollocks is hardly "crying wolf."

Quote:

First print rights. They publish a book using their own money. If they sell a lot, great. If not, oh well, no loss to you. As for the amount, who cares? That was money from a market that you didn't have access to in the first place. How many independent cartoonists do you know that have their books at Walmart?

Why in the world would I want my books at Walmart? How is having your books in Walmart synonymous with success? How big a cut from each sale of a Walmart comic book is the artist getting?

That's like claiming you want to be signed to Universal Music because your CD will be in Tower Records all over the country. Good for you, but you're still sleeping on your mom's couch.

Quote:

You can still print your own book afterwards and sell that at cons.

Fun story: Last time I read Daily Cartoonist, the Old Guard there was bitching about a Keith Knight comic, where he was suggesting newspaper cartoonists have signings and interact with their fans more, like webcartoonists do. The last time they had a signing, they grumbled, everyone just lined up to talk to Charles Schulz. I found this hilarious, because

A) Fuckin' diaperbabies couldn't handle not being the prettiest princess at the ball, and
B) Schulz died in 2000. they haven't tried to have a group signing for at least 10 years.

Suffice to say: I don't see may newspaper guys at cons. And the few I DO see walking the floor have a hate hard-on for web guys ten feet long. Good luck walking that tightrope.

I don't really understand why you think any future contact you'd hack out with universal would be better than the first. If the syndicates didn't bend for Watterson, what makes you think they'll roll out the red carpet for the winner of a contest who's already demonstrated he's content with $300.00 a month?

Quote:

Make no mistake though. I agree that there's a lot of room for a syndicate to take advantage. But I don't think they're evil and actively want to screw you over.

Some of the worst my-publisher-screwed-me-over stories I've ever heard start with this sentiment.

No, they're not evil. But make no mistake: They do not care about you. And they will never pay you so much you'll be able to afford to sue them.
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Hey. Read my comic. kthnx.

[cdrcjsn]

Iron Spike wrote:

cdrcjsn wrote: And this is where you can make a deal. Only the first book and development deal are non-negotiable. Everything else is. Let the syndicates handle the retail stores, newspapers, and other outlets that is very difficult to get to without representation and you retain the rights to set up your website, go to cons, sell merch and do all the things that independent webcomic folks do that isn't worth it for a syndicate. Win-win. My work is in retail stores (comic shops and chain/indie bookstores) and on Amazon, and my only representation is a man I've hired as a sales rep, and two distributors that also work for me, instead of vice-versa. Stores aren't difficult to get into in the slightest, if you have halfway-decent product. You don't need anyone's help to accomplish that.

A large number of graphic novels are purchased offline and outside of independent book stores and comic shops. Likewise, there are tons of products that are just not feasible for an independent, so there are tons of income streams that are only available due to economy of scale.

Sure, you might only be making 20% off each book than if you sold it yourself, but if your market is 10 times more, then it's worth it, especially if the market is different than one that you had before.

Yes, you can make a good living without the help of a syndicate. But you can make more with their help.

Quote:

Quote: Newspapers are dying. That's not the same as syndicates, which are basically talent agencies for cartoonists. No, they're not. Syndicates don't get a cut of the proceeds of work they find you; They collect everything and give YOU a cut. Big difference.

Only if you work out the contract that way. Everything is negotiable. Doug Eat Doug doesn't have to give his syndicate a cut on original art he sells on ebay. Lynn Johnston keeps all the money from her signed books that she sells in her store.

Even in the old business model, syndicates were not in the habit of keeping score on individual retail outlets, which is what your online store and convention appearances are, and where most independent webcomic creators will make most of their money.

Quote:

And again, I question the usefulness of middlemen desperate to stay relevant. The difference between self-promoting and hoping for syndicate representation is the difference between a smaller audience that supports you completely and a (theoretically) larger audience you can't pay your rent with.

That's an old view of syndication, where one thinks that being syndicated is their "big break" and they'll no longer have to do any work.

I merely view them as just another tool. There are positives and negatives to working with them.

Quote:

Rich Stevens, author if Diesel Sweeties, experimented with syndicate representation for about a year. He didn't renew his contract with the syndicate, because he was making a better living going it alone.

And when asked about it, he revealed that he was basically doing too much work. He was doing a separate strip for his site than he was for his webcomic due to the content of his original strips. He did something like 1000 strips in the course of one year. He was overworked and couldn't pay attention to his business properly. That, more than anything, is what caused his income to drop.

And although he has a great strip, it just wasn't made out for a newspaper audience (and he'll be the first one to admit that) to make up the difference in income.

That's won't be true of all strips.

Quote:

Quote: How much does a beginning webcomicker make their first two years? Even the most succesful ones I know of didn't make $7200. And that $7200 is on top of whatever you can make as an independent cartoonist. There's nothing stopping you from selling original art or have a site with ad revenue. That's money on top of whatever you can earn as an independent cartoonist. I'd like to meet the man who can produce 20 strips and all of their inevitable do-overs a month, PLUS a project on the side large enough to make up for the pay gap Amazon/Universal is building in to this contest. He must have four arms.

Even if a cartoonist doesn't make any other income from their comic than the development deal and book deal after 200 strips, that's more money that any webcomic will see their first two years.

And you don't have to have a project on the side. You can just make a website for the comic you're working on. 20 strips every 30 days is very doable, even with edits.

Quote:

And I'll take A) A less-than-living wage the first year of a webcomic in exchange for an unlimited future of profit with full ownership and creative control over B) A less-than-living wage the first year of a newspaper strip and a future under the creative control of a syndicate

That works for you. But what if someone has a strip that is already newspaper friendly that won't require content edits? They're not giving up creative control. What if they're willing to give up some rights (like first print rights) in order to make more than they would by themselves?

Again, you don't give up copyrights and trademarks indefinitely just because you sign with a syndicate.

Quote:

Quote: The book advance is a standard publishing contract. If an independent writer were to approach a publishing house, they can expect similar terms. As for the advance needing to be paid back, that's something that's not an industry standard and can have any of several clauses that can benefit as well as harm. Until we see the contract, it's rather premature to cry wolf. Yeah, a standard BAD publishing contract. The same terms Universal was using back when they were comfortable in their position of power, I don't doubt. Too bad for them, though. Comics isn't prose publishing, and they don't have their headlock on artists anymore.

I checked around, and it's a decent contract (though to be fair, I checked only prose publishing contracts).

Again though, this is first printing rights using their own money. Nothing is stopping you from negotiating the right for a second, independent print run afterward.

Quote:

And calling a non-negotiable contract that calls a retractable advance a reward and considers $300.00 a month "Superstar" pay a load of bollocks is hardly "crying wolf."

We haven't seen the contract. We don't know if the advance is retractable. Until the actual contracts are revealed, it is premature to call them a sucker's deal, especially since both book deal and development deal seem standard to what they pay normal syndicated creators.

You might consider a syndicate deal bad in general, but it's not entirely correct to make this sound worse than a normal syndicate contract deal.

Quote:

Quote: First print rights. They publish a book using their own money. If they sell a lot, great. If not, oh well, no loss to you. As for the amount, who cares? That was money from a market that you didn't have access to in the first place. How many independent cartoonists do you know that have their books at Walmart? Why in the world would I want my books at Walmart? How is having your books in Walmart synonymous with success? How big a cut from each sale of a Walmart comic book is the artist getting?

You might not want your book at Walmart, but who's to say that someone with a newspaper style strip wouldn't?

I'm not saying that having your books at Walmart, or other big retail chains is a definition of success. I'm just saying that it's another avenue of revenue that is not available to an independent artist.

As to the pay, I don't know the exact percentages. But I do know that some percent of something is better than a larger percent of nothing.

Quote:

That's like claiming you want to be signed to Universal Music because your CD will be in Tower Records all over the country. Good for you, but you're still sleeping on your mom's couch.

I think you've misunderstood my point. My point was not to get into retail stores because that should be your end goal. My point is that it's another income stream that isn't readily available to independents.

Quote:

Fun story: <snipped> Good luck walking that tightrope.

Yeah, the old guard newspaper guys do seem to resemble a bunch of complaining old men.

Quote:

I don't really understand why you think any future contact you'd hack out with universal would be better than the first. If the syndicates didn't bend for Watterson, what makes you think they'll roll out the red carpet for the winner of a contest who's already demonstrated he's content with $300.00 a month?

Because I know the reasoning behind why the initial development deal and print contract are fixed in the first place. It's the same reason that American Idol locks in contestants to a touring contract before the show. Because afterwards, they might be popular enough to try to negotiate, even though they're still an untried and unproven talent with no guarantee of success. Why offer more than what a standard contract would give to someone who might not even be able to commit to a 200 strip contract?

And mentioning Watterson actually weakens your argument. He beat his syndicate and got his way. But it was the syndicates that wanted to make more money for Watterson. He was the one that didn't want to dilute his art by hawking wares like shirts, mugs, toys, cartoons, etc. In the end Watterson won the right to make less money.

I've also looked at what other Universal creators have managed to negotiate from their syndicate. It seems that everything that an independent webcomic creator would want can be negotiated for. So asking for the right to your own site with content, ads, and store isn't an outrageous demand.

It's just that most newspaper guys don't seem to want those things...

Quote:

Quote: Make no mistake though. I agree that there's a lot of room for a syndicate to take advantage. But I don't think they're evil and actively want to screw you over. Some of the worst my-publisher-screwed-me-over stories I've ever heard start with this sentiment. No, they're not evil. But make no mistake: They do not care about you. And they will never pay you so much you'll be able to afford to sue them.

Completely agree. But that doesn't mean you can't make a deal with them as long as you know all the angles.

A syndicate contract is not for everyone.

It's just that I see more people dismissing syndicates out of hand than actually considering the opportunities they present. I think that's as big a mistake as newspaper creators dismissing webcomics out of hand.
_________________
www.familiar-ground.com

Vote for Familiar Ground!