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How many people are still super active on here?
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How many posts do you post a day?
None.
42%
 42%  [ 6 ]
1
35%
 35%  [ 5 ]
2-3
14%
 14%  [ 2 ]
5+
0%
 0%  [ 0 ]
10+
7%
 7%  [ 1 ]
Total Votes : 14

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 28, 2013 4:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What we need is another Bobby, Bengo, or that guy who uses a ruler for everything he does.
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FlapjackStudios



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PostPosted: Mon Oct 28, 2013 4:47 am    Post subject: some replies Reply with quote

ttallan wrote:
Actually, I disagree that the webcomic market has saturated. I don't think it's really even opened up yet. How many random people in your neighborhood even know what webcomics are? Or if they have heard of webcomics, how many are likely to shrug them off as... as...

OK, I was about to throw on a stereotype but I really don't know how the rest of the world views webcomics. Gamer-stuff? Porn? Badly-drawn crap?

Back to the point. Webcomics haven't reached anywhere near the awareness level of newspaper comics, and nearly everyone can think of at least one newspaper comic they enjoy. I know to us in the biz it seems like webcomics have been around forever and people starting a webcomic now are too late to get in when the getting was good, but really, it's still a new thing. The whole internet is still shaking out and trying to find equilibrium.

The observation that no one has retired off of webcomics yet seems... misleading. As I said, webcomics are still new. Nobody who started their career in webcomics has reached retirement age yet! Very Happy And if anyone has actually earned enough money to retire on (let's say, the Penny Arcade guys), they probably love what they do too much to think about retiring. Charles Schultz didn't retire with his millions, right?


It's interesting to think webcomics haven't really taken off but at the same time it feels like there's too many of them. I have been doing my comic Flipside U for just about a year now and have been advertising everywhere vying for any comic reader's attention 24/7. I must say it is hard work. Every where you look 100 other people are doing the same thing so it feels over saturated to me. But I agree that webcomics haven't really hit their stride. It's a weird feeling. Newspapers or magazines still hold some audience gaining powers, that's for sure!

I wonder if Banner Blindness is slowly being applied to webcomics as well...I hope not.

ewomack wrote:
Kate Beaton's point was more that no one is actually making enough money from webcomics to retire and never work again, not whether they would or wouldn't retire if given the chance. And given the way the market is now, no one probably can anyway. I have doubts that that will change unless webcomic syndicates with large money and promotional power behind them rise up and corner the market. And it may not even change then because the syndicates will of course take a chunk of the revenue.

Of course it's possible that an entrepreneurial webomic will come along and make a Peanuts-like impact, but it seems highly unlikely. There are just so many webcomics, and so many really great ones, out there, for any one or few to easily rise to the top. That's what I mean by claiming that the market is saturated - there are thousands, possibly tens of thousands, of webcomics out there. Just about every time I open my browser I run into a new webcomic that I've never seen before. They're everywhere. A wall of confusion faces anyone who delves into the genre and the average lover of newspaper comics would probably quickly find themselves overwhelmed when faced with the dizzying array of choices and subgenres on the internet.

But if we're also counting adult comics, the whole game may change... some of them may actually be raking it in... I don't know... just a guess... that stuff seems to sell in any format.


I do think adult comics are where you can make some money. If that's what you wanna do its totally worth it. The real question is, how does a webcomic artist get some actual attention in this over saturated sea of media? I mean as long as there's people on this earth they will continue to crave new entertainment. So wanting to start a webcomic is a fine thing to do in my books. Hmm...maybe the secret is buckling down with a dedicated and loyal team of skilled people? I'm thinking that's key...Then perhaps the forums will flood with 1000s of comic enthusiasts once more! Haha. Or maybe they'll just head over to Twitter or tumblr.

--------------------------


Last edited by FlapjackStudios on Mon Oct 28, 2013 4:49 am; edited 1 time in total
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vulpeslibertas
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 28, 2013 4:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Let's not bring back Bobbykins.
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 28, 2013 4:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

vulpeslibertas wrote:
Let's not bring back Bobbykins.


I don't get it. Who's that?

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 28, 2013 5:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

FlapjackStudios wrote:
vulpeslibertas wrote:
Let's not bring back Bobbykins.


I don't get it. Who's that?

Heh. run down the memberlist until you find "+EV" then click on "See all posts"
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 28, 2013 6:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Don't confuse +EV with EV+.

Flapjack, it depends on what you mean by "saturated". All industries have a natural market size based on quality of product and price. Higher quality and lower price produce a larger market. If you lower the price low enough and raise quality high enough, the only limit to the market is the whole population.

Even though they are free, webcomics haven't hit "zero" price. There's internet access costs, the time it takes to read them, the difficulty costs of trying to find good comics, then trawl through their archives. This is time that people could be using to look up cats on the internet, so we're in indirect competition with them.

On the Quality side, most webcomics are lousy. 90% of them are 3 week projects by high school students. 9% are people like you and I with some moderate amount of webcomic skill, talent, and dedication. The remaining 1% are people like Phil Foglio, Penny Arcade, etc - professional level artists who effectively do webcomics on a full-time basis.

Webcomics "suffer" from a low barrier to entry. It's really easy to start a webcomic. Because of this, there's a large number of webcomics out there. This creates cut-throat competition in an industry where everybody is basically "working" for free. It's not an inherently money-making business. This really is a good thing for webcomic readers, because it gives them a huge supply of different comics. It does mean that it's nigh-to-impossible to make "real" money.

I think webcomics could benefit from an improved delivery system. I proposed such a system a while ago, but I'm such a flake it never got off the ground.
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 28, 2013 2:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

vulpeslibertas wrote:
Don't confuse +EV with EV+.

Flapjack, it depends on what you mean by "saturated". All industries have a natural market size based on quality of product and price. Higher quality and lower price produce a larger market. If you lower the price low enough and raise quality high enough, the only limit to the market is the whole population.

Even though they are free, webcomics haven't hit "zero" price. There's internet access costs, the time it takes to read them, the difficulty costs of trying to find good comics, then trawl through their archives. This is time that people could be using to look up cats on the internet, so we're in indirect competition with them.

On the Quality side, most webcomics are lousy. 90% of them are 3 week projects by high school students. 9% are people like you and I with some moderate amount of webcomic skill, talent, and dedication. The remaining 1% are people like Phil Foglio, Penny Arcade, etc - professional level artists who effectively do webcomics on a full-time basis.

Webcomics "suffer" from a low barrier to entry. It's really easy to start a webcomic. Because of this, there's a large number of webcomics out there. This creates cut-throat competition in an industry where everybody is basically "working" for free. It's not an inherently money-making business. This really is a good thing for webcomic readers, because it gives them a huge supply of different comics. It does mean that it's nigh-to-impossible to make "real" money.

I think webcomics could benefit from an improved delivery system. I proposed such a system a while ago, but I'm such a flake it never got off the ground.


Interesting. What was this proposed system? Something like inkoutbreak? Or stumble upon just for comics?
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vulpeslibertas
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 28, 2013 9:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not that familiar with ink outbreak. The basic idea was a webcomic list with the ability to profile and sort comics according to about 15 different factors: quality, genre, medium, topic, form, etc. Similar to the kind of profiling used in advertising. If you combined this with the ability to manage a reading list, then you could get people comics a bit easier. Something like that. Not exactly a giant step forward, but an improvement over what was.

...hmmm... it seemed a lot flashier in my memory.
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 28, 2013 11:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Funny thing, I don't remember "quality" being an element of either the Dewey Decimal or Library of Congress archiving systems. Quality is too subjective a term where art is concerned. If it weren't, Eragon and Twilight wouldn't exist as things in the popular culture.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 29, 2013 1:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It was going to be a user-ranking system. y'know, one of those infallible measuring techniques.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 29, 2013 6:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Smile It's nice to see the old names I used to bounce ideas off of.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 29, 2013 7:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Perhaps webcomics, like so many other creative or competitive fields, is simply a winner take all game? A few become roaringly popular and rise to the top and appear in non-internet media (one gauge for the popularity of a webcomic is whether is has appeared outside of the internet) for whatever reasons one can fathom and the market can only handle a certain number of these?

If that's the case (and I don't know if it is), how does a webcomic become one of the mega-popular? How did Penny Arcade or XKCD become what they are? To say they are "the best" won't convince everyone, because a lot of great webcomics receive little or no attention. Popularity on that scale usually consists of more than viral link sharing, word of mouth marketing or just plain luck. Appearing in the New York Times, as XKCD has, involves far more than just generating site visits or likes on a top 1000 list.

Or does it start that way? Do links get exchanged until finally the "right person" (i.e., someone with connections) stumbles along it and decides to pass it on to their other "powerful" friends and colleagues? Is that how the legends are made?

I don't know. That sounds like a plausible scenario, but with all of the great work out there (I think far less than 90% of all webcomics, especially ones someone would actually hear about, are high school scrawlings) how do the few rise to the top? I'm guessing there is no formula but that each "mega-popular" comic has its own unique story that combines skill, drive, coincidence, connections and pure luck.

Depending on this answer, we seem to have a syndicate-like market running right now, or at least a similar outcome of one for revenue generating comics. The only difference is that the rest of us have a mass medium to post to.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 29, 2013 8:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In any endeavor, success depends on a combination of luck, talent, skill, and timing. Only in industries where gatekeepers (appointed either by power or fiat) exist, do you run into a non-organic system of success and failure. In the webcomics "hay day", it was actually more difficult to get exposure than it is now. You really had to impress either Eric Burns or one of the other big players (Chris Crosby at KeenSpot and Ryan North of Dinosaur Comics were notable for raising talent out of the morass) in the webcomics world to get more than a small word-of-mouth audience (not that WoM is bad, it's just slow).

Social media have at least done us all the favor of making exposure more organic again. The field is a lot like Texas after the Civil War. A lot of ranches have gone down, and there are maverick cattle all over the plains, just waiting to be herded.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 29, 2013 8:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ewomack wrote:
Perhaps webcomics, like so many other creative or competitive fields, is simply a winner take all game?
It depends what you mean by "winning".

If you mean having a large audience, easy tools for making and distributing webcomics, and lots of webcomics available, then I think we are all winning a lot more now than at the advent of the webcomic.

If you mean being better than everybody, then the competition is a lot more cutthroat than it ever was, and Penny Arcade is the only winner.

If you really want a successful webcomic, then you need to 1. focus on a message that a large number of readers will identify with, 2. polish your form so that it communicates that message, then 3. position it so that the readers you are targeting can see it. There's no voodoo about it, but it's not terribly well understood how one goes about each step.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 31, 2013 7:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

vulpeslibertas wrote:
ewomack wrote:
Perhaps webcomics, like so many other creative or competitive fields, is simply a winner take all game?
It depends what you mean by "winning".

If you mean having a large audience, easy tools for making and distributing webcomics, and lots of webcomics available, then I think we are all winning a lot more now than at the advent of the webcomic.

If you mean being better than everybody, then the competition is a lot more cutthroat than it ever was, and Penny Arcade is the only winner.

If you really want a successful webcomic, then you need to 1. focus on a message that a large number of readers will identify with, 2. polish your form so that it communicates that message, then 3. position it so that the readers you are targeting can see it. There's no voodoo about it, but it's not terribly well understood how one goes about each step.


This is so true its sick! There's no magical way to do it, everybody has to follow that formula. Its how the individual goes about promoting it that makes a difference, and that can be due to many factors. I mean first off, are you rich? If you are then you're set! There's one factor, or perhaps you're the type to shout out loud in public areas "Read my comic its really awesome!" I mean there are so many ways its mind boogling. You want to know where some of my traffic comes from? A school! Haha. A teacher likes my stuff and he shows his class his favorite PG versions if my comic. Bam. I met that person at a convention. So making a webcomic work can have a lot to do with personality too. Luck and finances. Social status you name it! Its nuts!

I think ppl should become friends online too and support each other however they can. That can help too.

Feel free to add to any if this. Haha.
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