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Am I wildly off base?

 
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mcmasters



Joined: 28 Jun 2012
Posts: 436

PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2013 5:55 am    Post subject: Am I wildly off base? Reply with quote

I want to post this soon in a couple other locations, an effort to find an artist to work with me on a new webcomic.

Having been in this community for a while I find this place to be full of very serious professional types very content (wisely so) to be doing their own thing, and doing it well, so I'm not asking here for an artist. I just want some opinions on my proposal. As I say in it, I'm a beginner. It reflects my thoughts and feelings, but am I way out of line anywhere? Is there something I am overlooking, am I coming off like too much of a dick (rhetorical question)?

Many of you are very talented artists. Is my proposal a complete eye-rolling screw-me or does it have any merit?

It's one of those "I'll write you draw but I can't pay you" things that throw up red flags but I don't know how to get around it.

Tear me a new one. I would rather hear it here than elsewhere.

http://www.mcmasterscomics.com/collaboration-proposal/
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vulpeslibertas
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2013 7:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I haven't read the whole proposal (It may be too long), but a couple of things:

1. You should try drawing it yourself. Drawing all of those perspectives and things will give you practice doing it and improve your art. If you aren't going to be "professional" anyway, then why not?

2. If your artist is any good and if they are also reading your proposal online, then they probably already have a Deviant Art account or similar and don't need you to give them a store. (Not a bad place to hunt for an artist by the way)

3. What next? It's probably a wee bit much to be asking your artist to do demo comics to "interview" for you when they aren't even getting paid. Just ask to see their similar/sample work. If the artist can draw what you want, and can be in it for the long term, then they probably already have something similar in their portfolio.

EDIT: Edited for clarity
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Casual Notice
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2013 1:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'll be honest with you mcm. Most of the artists around here have hilariously low self-worth, so they tend to take offense at anything that suggests their work is not the blessed fruit of the god-tree complimented by a mild but poignant nectar.

In the first version of the "Ho to ask for help without being mocked into oblivion" thread here (there have been four, including the one that is currently stickied), since I included a few short lines on the courtesy expeted of artists seeking writers, I was treated to three pages of abuse for suggesting that one of the chosen would ever need assistance from anyone whose "only talent" was crapping out words in the right order.

So, while I personally, don't see any problem with your proposal,don't be surprised if you get a few choice (and misused) words on the topic from someone.
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ttallan
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2013 2:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MCM, I know you were just trying to keep the suggestion of ego in your proposal to a minimum, but the unfortunate result of that is it looks like a really boring assignment.

I'd advise focusing your pitch on the reasons why an artist would have fun and enjoy this gig. Tell us about why you do webcomics, why you want to keep going even though you don't think you can draw (which I disagree with), and why an artist would want to join you. Hint at fun stuff that's coming up in the storyline. Also, any artist who actually enjoys drawing will not be excited by "there is a lot of standing around talking. You won’t be drawing a ton of zombie battles, shoot-outs, or explosions." That's only appealing to tired webcomickers struggling to get their strips out on schedule. And I would definitely put your layouts up front, or above the fold in this case. They show you have a strong commitment to the work, and also give a subtle hint at the level of ability you're looking for (ie, at least as good as this).

If you've been reading TWCL for a while, you know how we all roll our eyes at folks who think self-deprecating humor ("Worst comic on the web! Haha!") is the best way to promote their webcomic. The same rule applies here. The goal is to showcase your best features, not highlight your flaws. Smile
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mcmasters



Joined: 28 Jun 2012
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2013 4:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DAMN I'm glad I posted here first before sending it elsewhere. I want to come back later and comment on some of the particulars of your advice but overall it is extremely useful and I will be doing some serious proposal-editing. Thank you very much.

Quote:
So, while I personally, don't see any problem with your proposal,don't be surprised if you get a few choice (and misused) words on the topic from someone.


Fully expecting it!
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Kail



Joined: 10 Feb 2007
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2013 11:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Two things I'd think about getting rid of specifically:

Quote:

As I said earlier, I don’t need someone who would need to take hours and hours and hours on this. Let’s be realistic, if this is the case you will likely grow resentful that the hard work is not immediately rewarded.


You're asking for two full size pages per week for a fairly detail oriented setting, that's going to take a lot of time. Asking them to not take hours and hours doing it seems like you either don't know what you're asking, or you do and you're trying to crack the whip and say "I don't need people who are lazy".

Quote:
WHAT’S IN IT FOR ME?

40% of anything that comes from this. 50% if you’re a colorist and can color it.


50% of the non-existent profits for a hypothetical webcomic is not a great deal for an artist. Saying "50%, but only 40% if you're just doing line work" makes it sound like you don't need the extra 20%, but are docking them money because you think they don't deserve it.

I'd also get rid of lines like "I think there’s only a 2% chance someone who I think measures up to my art expectations will think that I measure up to their writing expectations." It makes you sound defeatist. (edit: as ttallan already pointed out, oops!)

The idea itself sounds good, though, and you seem like you've got a fairly reasonable grasp on things, good luck!
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mcmasters



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PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

vulpeslibertas wrote:
I haven't read the whole proposal (It may be too long),


I'm going to chop it down. It does go on too much.

Quote:
You should try drawing it yourself. Drawing all of those perspectives and things will give you practice doing it and improve your art. If you aren't going to be "professional" anyway, then why not?


Time, desire, and ability. Not much of any. “Pete” is soaking up a lot of my “me” time and I'm enjoying how it's going so I don't want to bail on it even though the other one is better. Improving my art would happen, but in the mean time the comic would be weak. And, not to get morbid, but I'm getting up there so it's not like I'm young and becoming a good artist will pay off down the line. The intrinsic value of getting better at something is a good thing no matter what your age, but I just don't enjoy it that much.

Quote:
If your artist is any good and if they are also reading your proposal online, then they probably already have a Deviant Art account or similar and don't need you to give them a store. (Not a bad place to hunt for an artist by the way)


Good point and good idea.

Quote:
3. What next? It's probably a wee bit much to be asking your artist to do demo comics to "interview" for you when they aren't even getting paid. Just ask to see their similar/sample work. If the artist can draw what you want, and can be in it for the long term, then they probably already have something similar in their portfolio.


It's probably more than a wee bit too much to ask...maybe I could ask for one original based on my ideas/characters/setting? Two is probably too dickish on my part. Partly it's a covert effort to see if something could be produced fairly quickly.

Casual Notice wrote:
In the first version of the "Ho to ask for help without being mocked into oblivion" thread here (there have been four, including the one that is currently stickied), since I included a few short lines on the courtesy expeted of artists seeking writers, I was treated to three pages of abuse for suggesting that one of the chosen would ever need assistance from anyone whose "only talent" was crapping out words in the right order.


“crapping out words in the right order.” Lol. CN your posts display a way with words that is a hell of a lot better than crapping out words in the right order, in case nobody has told you. I'm going to go back and dig out the posts you mention and see how that helps. And I do expect some indignant responses.
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mcmasters



Joined: 28 Jun 2012
Posts: 436

PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ttallan wrote:
MCM, I know you were just trying to keep the suggestion of ego in your proposal to a minimum, but the unfortunate result of that is it looks like a really boring assignment.


Damn. I guess I'm rebelling against the types of proposals I see on Digital Webbing that seem to consist of a variation of “I'm awesome, some lucky artist will be lucky enough to get on board my awesome-train to Moneyville, it may as well be you. (back-end pay only)”

Quote:
I'd advise focusing your pitch on the reasons why an artist would have fun and enjoy this gig. Tell us about why you do webcomics, why you want to keep going even though you don't think you can draw (which I disagree with), and why an artist would want to join you. Hint at fun stuff that's coming up in the storyline.


I can do that...I was thinking of adding some info about a few of the story arcs. But if I “sell” it too hard based on alleged fun and enjoyment rather than being clear about what is to be drawn won't that backfire?

Quote:
Also, any artist who actually enjoys drawing will not be excited by "there is a lot of standing around talking. You won’t be drawing a ton of zombie battles, shoot-outs, or explosions." That's only appealing to tired webcomickers struggling to get their strips out on schedule.


I may have to risk it. It is what it is. I don't want to “sell” the project as something that it is not. The artist will feel burned later.

Quote:
And I would definitely put your layouts up front, or above the fold in this case. They show you have a strong commitment to the work, and also give a subtle hint at the level of ability you're looking for (ie, at least as good as this).


Excellent advice.

Quote:
If you've been reading TWCL for a while, you know how we all roll our eyes at folks who think self-deprecating humor ("Worst comic on the web! Haha!") is the best way to promote their webcomic. The same rule applies here. The goal is to showcase your best features, not highlight your flaws. Smile


I will remove the obsessive part about how I don't think my art is good enough. It also falls into the “makes the proposal too long and we don't give a shit anyway” category.
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mcmasters



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PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 3:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kail wrote:
You're asking for two full size pages per week for a fairly detail oriented setting, that's going to take a lot of time. Asking them to not take hours and hours doing it seems like you either don't know what you're asking, or you do and you're trying to crack the whip and say "I don't need people who are lazy".


You are correct and the answer is the former of the two: I don't know what I'm asking! I don't really know what goes into it for other artists. Some of my Pete pages take 30 minutes to pencil and ink (they're crude I know) and some take 2 hours (the damn bedroom scene). So my thinking is in any field of endeavor some people by nature, hard work, or both, can do the endeavor faster and easier than another person. Is it a myth that there is someone out there that can bang out what I'm asking for fairly quickly and effortlessly? But I will edit the way I express myself here.

Quote:
Quote:
WHAT’S IN IT FOR ME?

40% of anything that comes from this. 50% if you’re a colorist and can color it.


50% of the non-existent profits for a hypothetical webcomic is not a great deal for an artist. Saying "50%, but only 40% if you're just doing line work" makes it sound like you don't need the extra 20%, but are docking them money because you think they don't deserve it.


I'll think of some other way to arrange this...but I want color! I could learn to do it myself (the coloring) but...sounds daunting. And a decent artist is going to want me butchering his line work learning to color? I suppose I'll just offer 50-50 with at least drawn and inked.

Quote:
I'd also get rid of lines like "I think there’s only a 2% chance someone who I think measures up to my art expectations will think that I measure up to their writing expectations." It makes you sound defeatist. (edit: as ttallan already pointed out, oops!)


I guess I'm trying to ward off replies like: "Sure, dude, there's a FRICKING LINE FORMING of artists waiting to work with you. Not. Get over yourself, etc. etc."

Quote:
The idea itself sounds good, though, and you seem like you've got a fairly reasonable grasp on things, good luck!


Thanks for taking the time to look over it!

---

www.mcmasterscomics.com
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mcmasters



Joined: 28 Jun 2012
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 2:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Okay I rewrote my proposal taking into consideration many of the ideas given here. It looks about the same but is a bit shorter, no longer moans about why I'm not going to draw it, is more positive and less negative. I mentioned some of the story arcs I have in mind to stimulate some curiosity. I'm not asking for two pages of sample art anymore but I'm sticking with one.

I link it here for any masochists who want to read it a second time. Also for masochists who want to read it for the first time. http://www.mcmasterscomics.com/collaboration-proposal/

I think this is about what I'm going with. I could overthink and overcorrect it forever but I want to get the show on the road. Thanks again!

Oh, and...anybody want to draw a webcomic? Very Happy


---

www.mcmasterscomics.com
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Metruis
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2013 2:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey mcmasters.

Honestly, I just wanted to duck in here to say that I actually really like your art style. I think your lines and cartoony method of drawing people have a very unique style that with practice will develop into something pretty kick-ass.

When I read your pitch I was genuinely thrown off that you thought these were sketches; I thought they were well on the way to finished art.

So I've got a little proposal.

I'm a colorist and a digital painter. I read Pete and thought it was pretty hilarious. I also thought it had the makings of being a pretty decent comic, mostly if I was to nitpick it would be "go to Blambot and get a better font".

I like doing landscapes and detailed painty color work. I get the idea that you'd like something in nice color, nice backgrounds... maybe something like Derelict? And while you draw nice people you're just not confident enough to take on the full job. Much like me: I'd love to get in on a project where someone who's a pretty decent inker is doing the people, where I can focus on doing what I do best... backgrounds and color work. I've had an itch to collaborate with someone for a while, but not do all of the art, just the colors.

If you can't find yourself an artist to do all the work, if you draw your own pages (even if you leave the backgrounds entirely blank, leave the speech bubbles out, and don't do the panels), I'll color for you and do your backgrounds. I think I can tighten your work into something polished. I also think your art as demonstrated stands on its own and is already the right look for the type of comic you're aiming for. If this sounds like the kind of setup you might be interested in, let me know and I'll do that 'standing against a tree' page you wanted to see a burnt out car in the background for, using your lines.

Think about it and if you'd like, email me the high res file to color. calthyechild @ gmail . com. DeviantArt is same.

Cheers.
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mcmasters



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PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2013 3:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Metruis thanks for the comments about my art.

Let me shoot you a pm tomorrow afternoon and we'll shoot the shit a bit. Right now I'm 50% "this is fricking awesome we are going to kick ass" and 50% "wait a second, what about...?" We no doubt have some questions for each other.

Talk to you soon! Thanks, Jerry.
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argylefox



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PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2013 1:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I must admit I was vaguely interested, but for a few things.
1. The backgrounds seem important. I am not good at backgrounds, although I am trying. I like some of your, though.

2. I think your pictures are about as good as mine. While yours looked a bit sketchy, if you spent more time polishing them, they should be really good.

3. I am one of those 'slow' drawers. I'd never get out two pages a week, and I may sometimes struggle with one.


I do like the idea, however, so good luck.

Max of [url="www.indifferentlyevil.com"]Indifferently Evil[/url]
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mcmasters



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PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2013 2:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

argylefox wrote:
I must admit I was vaguely interested, but for a few things.
1. The backgrounds seem important. I am not good at backgrounds, although I am trying. I like some of your, though.

2. I think your pictures are about as good as mine. While yours looked a bit sketchy, if you spent more time polishing them, they should be really good.


Thanks, I think your style is quite good and has a "finished" quality mine don't. Mine are kind of breezy like when the lines trail off at the knee...it's a bluff, I don't want to draw the feet! Actually I was going to comment on that one you did a week or so ago- might have been an update you posted- but I really liked the one with the two aliens and in the last panel they start blasting and everyone scatters. Nicely done.

Quote:
3. I am one of those 'slow' drawers. I'd never get out two pages a week, and I may sometimes struggle with one.


For me it just depends. The "Pete" thing is very standardized, kind of assembly line for me by now. Pete does a lot of standing around, except for when he's sitting around. The one I want to do is different and will require a variety of different images, which will be a real time-suck. I would love to find someone to work with to do it.
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