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Anybody fancy critting the hell out of a picture for me?
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wendyw
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 22, 2012 9:06 pm    Post subject: Anybody fancy critting the hell out of a picture for me? Reply with quote

If there's one thing I'm terrible at drawing (actually there's quite a few) it's people, so I'm having a go at fixing that or trying to anyway.

Anyway, here's a picture that took me far longer to draw earlier today than it should have. I'd like to know how to make it better and if you keep giving me suggestions I'll keep redrawing it until it's super awesome.

Or maybe you know, reasonably good. : P



Sorry it's a photo not a scan. We had to get an electrician out to fix a plug socket and my desk hasn't been put back yet.
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LukeSurl
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 22, 2012 9:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

One obvious thing is that the ears are much higher up the head than a human's ears would be - it makes her look slightly animal-like (maybe this is the intention)

A second is that clouds generally don't look like that, patchy clouds tend to have a flat base and are lighter than the surrounding sky, not darker.
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wendyw
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 22, 2012 9:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ah, good point with the ears. I actually tried to layout the face properly and then ended up changing the eyes and nose about and then didn't fix the ears.

Primarily because I'm an idiot.
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iaviv



Joined: 03 Sep 2011
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 22, 2012 11:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Actually, the ears are fine as long as she's looking down and not straight at us.
I do agree about the clouds, though. If the clouds are dark that means the sky should be at least darker than white.
You also might want to add some grass in front of her shoes, so it looks like she's actually standing in the grass and not just pasted on a picture of grass. It's a small detail, but it adds depth somehow.
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ttallan
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2012 12:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The main thing that stands out as odd for me is her hand goes all the way down to her knee. That ain't right. Typically your fingers don't reach much past your hips if you're standing up straight. You could fix that by adjusting the arm length or by adjusting the length of her abdomen (particularly below her waist).

Even if she's looking down, the ears are still too high. They also stick out rather a lot, but that's OK if that's what you intended or if that's your style.

Her expression is nice! Makes me wonder what she's thinking.
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Casual Notice
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2012 1:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Okay, I'm going to indulge my lack of artistic axperience here and comment just for grins.

Ears / looking down: As far as I can tell from the couple of books I've read onb the subject, if she's looking down, her chin and mouth should be higher; otherwise, her ears are just too high. I've heard that looking straight down and looking straight up are the most difficult full-face positions for drawing.

Feet / grass: This seems less like a problem of where the grass is drawn and more a problem of perspective style. Most of the drawing feel like standard comic strip 90-5 "perspective", but the grass that's been drawn in gives the lower third a natural perspective feel, and it's jarring.

Clouds: Clouds aren't grey from the side unless there are other clouds above them. The puffy cumulus clouds you've drawn tend to be pretty white with grey shading at the actual bottom and under the puffy bits (where you've drawn the lines.

Nits to pick: Her arms are too long. Elbows should hang right at the bottom of the ribcage, wrist right at the pocket opening. Her pelvic girdle seems too short, which may contribute to the arm thing. If her breasts are large enough that they hang that far out the sides of her chest, then there should be some tenting in her blouse, resulting in a stretch crease between the peaks. There are far too few kittens in the picture.
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vulpeslibertas
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2012 2:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

[begin vicious critique Twisted Evil]

Ears - I'm pretty sure the ears don't go up when you look down. They're just about directly above the pivot point (the center of the neck), so they should stay right about where they are. Everything in front of the pivot point will go down when you look down, and everything behind it will go up. Kind of like your head was a see-saw. These ears are kind of what I'd expect looking from the side of the head, or a 3/4 view.

Arms - The arms are too long by about a hand's length (remove a finger's length from upper and lower arm and it should be fine)

Feet - I usually put my feet in perspective. If we're looking at this character face-to-face, then we have to be looking down at the feet. This means we'd be seeing the tops of her shoes. Also, to give the shoes more definition, you can point the toes outward a little. I think the average person's feet angle out at about 5-10 degrees. You can gauge this by standing up naturally, and looking down at your own feet.

Horizon - A general rule, for a flat horizon, anything which intersects the horizon is at eye-level of the viewer. That means we're looking from about waist level.

Face - I've tried eyes like that, and they don't seem to work for my characters, but yours suit your stye well. Overall face proportions are about right (eyes at 1/2, nose at 1/2 of that, and mouth at 1/2 of that). Her left cheek seems to bulge a little bit. Hair is good.

Clothing - You might add some more krinkle to the jeans in the crotch area, but it isn't necessary. Also a line or two to the armpits. The jeans look very flat, partly because they have so much blank surface area. You might try adding one or two wrinkle lines down the side, or add some basic shading on the sides. Overall, good detail in important places, cuffs, neck, pockets.

Hands look good. Overall torso is good.

/Twisted Evil

EDIT: Oh, yeah - The pants should bend up and over the shoes a little bit. You can use the wrinkles and creases from that to give a little bit of dimensional depth to the bottom of the pant legs.
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Kail



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PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2012 4:06 am    Post subject: Re: Anybody fancy critting the hell out of a picture for me? Reply with quote

Overall, pretty neat, there's a few things I'd change, though:

The first thing that bugs me is the pose. The character is standing straight at ninety degrees to the camera, which makes her look flat. She's got a very neutral pose (one hand is behind her back, otherwise she's basically just standing there), a relatively neutral expression... it's all very basic, there's nothing really interesting about how she's posed.

This ties in to the second thing, which is that she looks kind of flat. There are a lot of flat horizontal lines for things like the cuffs of her pants and shirt and her pockets, and the soles of her shoes (as other people have mentioned). These are irregular edges with depth, but they're drawn like flat lines here, which makes her look flattened out.

Also, the hair texture seems a bit random, like the lines were added to give the hair a uniform density, so you might want to use them to show things like hilights and shadows on the head rather than just sprinkling them all over.

Generally, looks pretty good, though!
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iaviv



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PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2012 11:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The ears do go up when you're looking down, as well as go down when you're looking up. Of course their angle changes. Forgot to mention that. I'm not making this up, people, look in the mirror and see for yourself.

I agree about the hands being too long, though it just as well be that the legs are too short. All depends on how you want the character to look like.
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vulpeslibertas
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2012 2:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have quite a bit of hair on my head, so these thumbrules are not terribly precise...

I looked in the mirror and this time I took photos, and drew pretty boxes on them (however I am too lazy to upload them). Here's what I found out (YMMV if your head is not perfectly shaped, as mine is.)

When you look down (Chin nearly all the way to the chest/neck), the absolute position of your ears (relative to your shoulders) goes down. So if your ear is centered slightly above the line going under your nose when facing normally, the top of the ear is even with where that line was before when looking down.

However, relative to the rest of your head... the bottom of your ears will be slightly above a line across your eyes.

So do your ears go up? Depends on your frame of reference.

When looking up (head craned back as far as it can go), the following is a rough thumbrule:

The absolute position of your ears will go up until the bottom of the ear is even with where your nose used to be, when looking normally.

The relative position of your ears goes down until the top of the ear is even with the top of the mouth (which should form a frown because of the angle you're looking at it from).
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iaviv



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PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2012 12:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

@vulpeslibertas - That will be my final word on this because it's getting tedious.



Just a Google search picture. You can Google for more if you want, they will all like this because it's basic perspective rules.

The end.
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Casual Notice
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2012 7:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Technically, your picture bore out what VL said. Face go down, ears stay in same place. Ears are mich higher relative to the face, but still more or less in the center of the sides of the head.
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iaviv



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PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2012 7:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Casual Notice wrote:
Technically, your picture bore out what VL said. Face go down, ears stay in same place. Ears are mich higher relative to the face, but still more or less in the center of the sides of the head.


Perhaps, but that wasn't my point. Unlike that wall of text this picture can actually be understood. That is all.
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Lavenderbard
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2012 7:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

iaviv wrote:
Unlike that wall of text this picture can actually be understood. That is all.


I understood the wall of text. When I saw the picture I didn't think "Oh, that's what was meant," I thought, "Yes, precisely as described."

Since CN appears to have had a similar reaction, I assume he understood the text also.
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wendyw
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2012 3:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the feedback everybody.

Here we go, attempt number three. Attempt number two was too terrible for words.



Okay, issues I've attempted to fix here:

Bizarrely placed ears
Ridiculously long arms
Two dimensional shoes and jeans
Stupid clouds
Bizarrely inverted sky/cloud shading
Overly emphasised hair
Utter lack of relationship to the environment
Lack of kittens

Also, my desk's back in place so I got to actually scan and colour this one.

Kail wrote:
The first thing that bugs me is the pose. The character is standing straight at ninety degrees to the camera, which makes her look flat. She's got a very neutral pose (one hand is behind her back, otherwise she's basically just standing there), a relatively neutral expression... it's all very basic, there's nothing really interesting about how she's posed.


Yeah, the pose is pretty boring, but as I really just want to get the basic shape of a human right (something that I really need work at) I want to start off with something very straight forward.

I'm going to try to work on shading the image as well. I starting to work on shading, but it wasn't going right and I think it's going to take me a while, so I thought I'd post the unshaded version first.

The eyes in this version are pretty wonky looking to me, but it was only became clear to me just how odd they look when I added colour, so that's something I will try and fix when I add shading.

What else did I do horribly wrong?
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