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Wall Street Protest
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Are you angry that the rich is getting richer and we are left to paid the bills?
Hell Yea!!!
85%
 85%  [ 6 ]
I am that 1% that got all the money =P
0%
 0%  [ 0 ]
Where is Wall Street? ... "Pitch fork"
0%
 0%  [ 0 ]
Ummm no.... I wish I was them...
14%
 14%  [ 1 ]
Total Votes : 7

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Skyeboy



Joined: 01 Dec 2005
Posts: 253
Location: Dumpster behind Burger King

PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2011 2:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thought this was an interesting pic. It doesn't reflect my opinion exactly but it speaks volumes:
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Traegorn



Joined: 16 Feb 2010
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2011 2:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Skyeboy wrote:
Thought this was an interesting pic. It doesn't reflect my opinion exactly but it speaks volumes:
Wow, that's a loaded false comparison of no relevance if I've ever seen one.
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smbhax.com
No! Don't post it there!


Joined: 10 Apr 2009
Posts: 2952
Location: Seattle

PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2011 3:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If it leads to any degree of bank reform, that's super; they're already claiming to have forced the hands of big banks on a couple issues, I guess. Pessimistically though I tend to think that anything the banks *did* do as a reaction now will be steadily undermined as soon as such protests blow over, which I would think they'd have to do at some point...although so far they've had some surprising staying power.
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citronrobotlord



Joined: 17 Jan 2011
Posts: 87

PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2011 4:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree this image is loaded. Some of the Nova Scotia veterans actually asked the Occ.NS not to move from their location (the same location remembrance day ceremonies are held every year) saying that they fought for the right for this to happen.

in general, weather they want them to stick around on the 11th or not, the veterans (and the police, which can't be said for some cities experiencing this) have no complaints about what's happening down at Occ. NS.

Also it's important to note that (In NS at least) there are truckloads of homeless vets. just one of the side effects of what the Occ. movement is fighting against.

the soldiers who fought in 1944 deserve everything these 2011 kids are asking for.

In my opinion.
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Casual Notice
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Joined: 18 Mar 2005
Posts: 2966
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2011 5:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Let's start with "democracy". The US was never a democracy, we never wanted a democracy (we're a representative republic), and the ivory-tower collegians who told you democracy is a good thing, fed you a load. No democracy can last any longer than it takes the citizenry to realize they can vote themselves a piece of the public trust (I'm paraphrasing someone else, but don't feel like looking up who or the correct quote).

Now, Nova Scotia is a nice province. My wife comes from there, and I've visited twice. I'm going to assume that "Occupy NS" is actually "occupying" a veterans' park in Halifax (or possibly Yarmouth or Digby, but I doubt it). I won't speak to that demonstration because I like NS, and the possibility that even Halifax has produced the kind of filth that have become the Occupy (insert cityname) idiots here in the US horrifies me.

Some highlights of the Occupy protests in the US:

  • protestors are dissuaded, sometimes forcefully, from reporting felonies, included robbery and rape, to the police
  • Occupy DC pushed an 85-year-old woman down a set of stairs because she dared attend a banquet honoring the late Ronald Reagan (to be fair, they didn't single her out, they were oppressing and threatening the entire banquet, essentially holding them hostage)
  • Occupy Oakland spent some time "occupying" a Burger King. They didn't mount a protest at Burger King's regional office, they closed down a single Burger King (including harrassing a manager whose weekly paycheck was probably less than the cost of the clothes the occupiers were wearing)
  • a young veteran was accidentally wounded with a tear gas cannister when Occupy Oakland violently opposed a temporary relocation so city workers could clean up their mess and hopefully destroy the growing rat population
  • The owner of a small cafe near Zucotti park, where Occupy Wall Street is occurring started out allowing OWS participants to use her bathroom. Until she realized they never cleaned up after themselves and often misused the facilities to the point her sink was broken (they didn't even have the good faith to inform her and apologize...one of her employees discovered it when he went in to clean up). She changed her policy and now only allows paying customers to use the restroom (having locked the door to ensure her new policy is enforced). She receives regular death threats both vocally and in the mail.


If this is the true face of democracy, I'm glad I live in a representative republic.

FYI: BoA et al didn't back down on their idiot debit card fees because of anything OWS did. They backed down because the minute the announcement was made, smaller banks broke out advertisements announcing that they had no intention of attaching (more) ridiculous fees to their accounts. BoA et al just didn't want to lose customers to a competitor. the Only people OWS is hurting are the actual 99% who are trying to work for a living but being bullied by trust-fund babies and geriatric hippies.
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citronrobotlord



Joined: 17 Jan 2011
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2011 7:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

well, I can't speak much for wall street. besides that the amount of communities out there are so much that, from what I understand, the diversity is massive.

But I can say that as a canadian, my country does aim to be a democracy, at least in how it talks. And honestly, on small scales democracy does work.

Also, as for the dissuasion from informing police about felonies, that subject has become rather muddied as the occupy wall-street website has sited that NY's occupy actually helped police to catch the predator they have been accused of letting walk free.

Due to the fact that I am in neither region I can't make a solid opinion on the matter.

What's really necessary, I think, is for all these occupy protests to set up a system of sociovalence and co-operate with police seeing as the police are part of the 99%, while at the same time the police should be doing the same. Which I am confident in saying, isn't always the case.

I think it's also important to realize that yeah, there will be vandals that piggy back on a protest like this. Perhaps even consider that these vandals are sometimes a byproduct of a society that crushes people to survive.

If you've read about debt based money, you realize that Canada and the US share that in common. And the thing about debt based money is, if someone's not broke the country's not paying back its debt.

But here in NS, from the people I've talked to, even the lazy bums and vandals in our city have been learning allot from this protest. I haven't heard of any broken windows, despite them being in parade square which is across the street from the CIBC and the TD banks. just a few blocks from the Bank of Canada. and directly in front of city hall.

Perhaps, NS should become the shining example for all the other Occupies to look at, and copy, because if the other occupy are as bad as so many people say they are, the need to kick themselves in the butt
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smbhax.com
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Joined: 10 Apr 2009
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Location: Seattle

PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2011 8:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Casual Notice wrote:
FYI: BoA et al didn't back down on their idiot debit card fees because of anything OWS did. They backed down because the minute the announcement was made, smaller banks broke out advertisements announcing that they had no intention of attaching (more) ridiculous fees to their accounts. BoA et al just didn't want to lose customers to a competitor. the Only people OWS is hurting are the actual 99% who are trying to work for a living but being bullied by trust-fund babies and geriatric hippies.

Yeah that does sound like a more likely explanation.
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Casual Notice
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2011 2:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
If you've read about debt based money, you realize that Canada and the US share that in common. And the thing about debt based money is, if someone's not broke the country's not paying back its debt.

Oh, my...someone's been watching too many YouTube "tutorials" on the economy. First, there's no such thing as debt-based money. What you are referring to is a Central Bank Economy, which is necessary when the Gross Product (either national or domestic) expands more rapidly than the value of a nation's gold reserves (gold was the chosen medium of exchange up until the beginning of the last century). Since the total value of all the gold ever mined is about $9.01 trillion (60-odd per cent of the US GDP of about $14 trillion) there is no way the gold system could have sustained the rapidly expanding economies of western nations.

That doesn't really matter, because the medium of exchange is secondary to the exchange itself. Every economy, everywhere, is essentially a series of trades. I have a talent for writing and for editing the work of others; I make a modest living selling that ability to others. What I do not do, however, is expect to get an apple by standing on the street with a sign that says, "Will Correct Spelling and Usage for Food." In all likelihood, the people who buy my services also do not directly trade those services for other services or products (I have no use for B2B products like large pipe fittings and valve regulators). This is where currency comes in.

Currency, in any form, allows people to exchange goods and services without direct barter. An apple farmer doesn't need my ability to create clearly structured sentences and vibrant mental imagery, he needs pesticides and maybe a new universal belt for his harvester. In order to get my apple without currency, I would have to persoally organize every trade along the way. I'm not sure if I can even draw a barter series from me to a farmer, so good luck if you can do that.

What does that have to do with Central Bank Currency? Well the older forms of currency were Fixed Value Currencies. Grain and cattle, and their later replacements, precious metals, have an intrinsic value that limits the viability of an economy beyond a certain point of production. Production depends on consumption to keep things balanced, and a Fixed-Value currency limits consumption in a number of ways. Most importantly is in pricing. a US dollar pegged at 1/20th of an ounce of gold would be worth 85 modern US dollars. this may seem like a good thing on the face of it when you do price comparisons: a low-end computer would cost a little over $7; however, that's $7 coming out of an average salary of $705 a year. Because of the way the human mind works, it's easier to blow $600 out of a monthly salary of $5000 than it is to blow $7 out of a monthly salary of $58.

Central Bank Currency allows tht to happen by allowing a medium of goods and services that is pegged only to itself, allowing (in theory, at least) traders to exchange items at their real value and not as a percentage of the value of an unrelated product. They work extremely well, and it's safe to say that Western Economies would not have expanded into the powerhouses they are without it, especially in the years following World War II.

Where nations get in trouble with a central bank economy, is when they lose trade parity. The minute a nation begins importing more than they export, they are in a deficit situation, and the value of their Central Bank Currency declines as a result, causing ongoing inflation and other ills as the value of the currency declines (and most Keynesian responses do little more than increase the rate of decline).[/quote]
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citronrobotlord



Joined: 17 Jan 2011
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2011 3:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Casual Notice wrote:
Quote:
If you've read about debt based money, you realize that Canada and the US share that in common. And the thing about debt based money is, if someone's not broke the country's not paying back its debt.

Oh, my...someone's been watching too many YouTube "tutorials" on the economy.
[/quote]

I really appreciate your description of the current currency, I have the assent of money which isn't a youtube "tutorial"

Also to clarify, as much as the zeitgeist film is flawed in many ways it holds true to one point.

The worth of our money is based on how much is owed back, that won't change weather the system works under good circumstances or not.

The big problem. in my opinion. is when the world allows basic human needs, such as a place to live, clothing to wear (this is a debatable need according to some people in warmer climates but here in Canada it's not), nutritional health, and the ability to communicate freely to be trumped by money.

Honestly I agree that trade systems could never work in a global economy, and gold couldn't either. What I agree with is that the economy that we work under needs to be mediated and transparent. It took an audit for the US to find out that their FED lost trillions of dollars to over seas banks, that's not a currency that's working for the people, in my opinion.
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