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Completely mental/talented artists only please!
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JedShepherd



Joined: 12 Dec 2011
Posts: 8

PostPosted: Mon Dec 12, 2011 8:40 pm    Post subject: Completely mental/talented artists only please! Reply with quote

Hi,

My name is Jed and I am a writer. I have written some things you have heard of and other things you most definitely haven't heard of.

One thing you might have heard of is this crazy horror film that had a million celebrity cameos in it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slashed

As you can see, its pretty out there...

Like most of my writing, its strange and if I was 20% more pretentious than I already am, I would call my work 'misunderstood'. I'm not misunderstood though, I just write things that I like and that might be considered a little niche, but hey ho, at least I like it.

What I am offering is for one artist to help me bring a script to life. Essentially I am pitching this script to various production companies etc and it would be alot easier if I had a comic of it to show them!

The script is basically a 30 minute pilot for a tv show. there will be 6 episodes totally 3 hours. All I need is a comic of the first 30 minutes.

The story is about the last person on earth. He spends his days at his old job at a radio station, playing the 3 mixtapes he has left to white noise and an empty world. He soon discovers that he isnt alone and nothing is as it seems.

thats the least fucked up version of the story I could write as I dont want to put you off Smile


So who wants to help me?

What you get:

1: to work with me! (yay)
2: if it gets made, i will stipulate that you be involved in some way, as we will essentially be working from your storyboard/comic and when people get paid, you get paid!
3: to be involved with a cool story (i promise)
4: my eternal gratitude.


So let me know!

you can either let me know here or email me at jedshepherd at gmail dot com.


thank you!

Jed
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TheRealSadegh



Joined: 12 Dec 2011
Posts: 14

PostPosted: Mon Dec 12, 2011 9:57 pm    Post subject: Unsure of my credentials but definitely interested Reply with quote

Hey Jed,

So your subject line got me interested and now I find myself very interested in your proposition. I don't know if I'm the right fit (aka if I'm mental/talented enough) but I'm definitely interested. If you want to check out some of the work I've done (I'm significantly less famous than you) you can head to jsadegh.tumblr.com (which has pretty much all of my recent work) and also expertsatnothing.tumblr.com (which is the link to just my comics alone). Take a look, if you like my stuff and think I'd be able to assist you in this insane project then just let me know and we can see about working together. If you don't see me as the right fit I completely understand, but just thought I'd throw my name into the mix. I have been doing this comic strip for a while now and often times realize many of the jokes are for a very niche market (aka myself) so I can relate. Whatever you decide, sounds like this will be an awesome project and I hope you make it to a television deal!

Also, sorry I didn't include my email but I just didn't want it floating around (although I'm sure it is anyways). If you feel the desire to message me you can reach me via my tumblr, this message board, or @TheRealSadegh on twitter. I look forward to maybe hearing from you!

- Justin
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Chilari
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 14, 2011 2:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This sounds a little dubious. Language like "What I am offering is for one artist to help me bring a script to life" (my emphasis) is the wrong way round. You're not offering an artist an opportunity, you're looking for an artist to help you pitch something. As such, you should be paying in advance for work done, and keep the artist out of subsequent deals. This is more fair for the artist, who gets a guarunteed income now rather than the flimsy promise of one later if things go well. As for the other promised rewards, you've not demonstrated that you're worth working with, that the idea is cool, or that your eternal gratitude is worth something.

Also I have never heard of comics being used to pitch a script for a TV series. I am working on a TV script myself at the moment and all of the research I've done about writing scripts makes it utterly clear to me that webcomic scripts and TV scripts are written in very different ways. You might as well present a novel to the TV execs and say "I want to make this into a TV show".

Your whole pitch here sounds like you think you're doing your potential artist a huge favour, but you're not. You might well be a well know writer - I haven't heard of you and if even if Jed Shepard is a known writer, you might not be him. Anyone can pick any name they like on forums like this, provided it's not already being used. I could say I'm J K Rowling and, while you'd probably doubt me, there's no way to prove either way.

In any case, known writer or not, unless you are paying an artist upon an agreed time scale, with an agreed fixed sum and not a percentage of future earnings, you're not doing anyone a favour. The number of writers who come on here and say "the artist will get 50% of future earnings from the webcomic" would surprise you. 50% of nothing is still nothing.

And the most dubious thing of all? It's an open call on a website like this. If you want an artist for something like a TV series pitch (and let's forget that comic and TV scripts are vastly different for the sake of this argument), what you do is you find an artist whose style you like and fits the story, and then you approach them via email, offer money not promises, and if they say no, you find another artist. If it takes four days of trawling through protfolios on DeviantArt or whatever, that's how you do it. Open calls like this mean you want to avoid spending money by finding someone just skilled enough for your purposes who is too naive or innocent of the ways the art world works to spot that you're not really doing them a favour. You're asking for spec work.

If I'm wrong about this, I am happy to be corrected. All you have to do is explain. In the meantime, it might benefit you to read a particular thread which has been stickied in this subforum, entitled Posting Etiquette: Writer Looking for Artist. I made that thread a few years ago because we kept getting people asking for artists who didn't offer anything, or didn't make it clear what writing skill they had, or tried to get artists to work for them for free on promises that would never be kept, or just didn't know how to get an artist. Have a look at it.
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JedShepherd



Joined: 12 Dec 2011
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 14, 2011 3:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi,

I know there are certain rules on here, and I apologise I didnt read these before posting, but I'm not trying to 'trick' anyone!

I was posting in a light-hearted manner which, if I'd known would be scrutinised, I would have taken more time with my spelling and grammar.

Yes, I'm looking for an artist to help me pitch it, but its more an additional element that I could do myself, but its always good to get new ideas in the mix.

I am also not forcing anyone to help me/be involved. If they don't want to, then cool, if they do then even cooler.

I am not looking for an established artist whose sole income comes from illustrating, more someone who does it as a hobby with potential to make a name for themselves.

I am also not saying its going to be a guaranteed success as I've written lots of stuff thats ended up at the bottom of drawers or forever hidden in folders marked 'nah'.

I apologise if I haven't made myself 'worth something' but again, if I'd known I'd be pulld up on it I would have mentioned I have a Grade 5 Double Bass award and can do at least 50 keepy-uppies. I can also hold my breath for more than 2 minutes. I hope this has proven that I am worth something to you.

Just because you haven't heard of something, does that mean that it isn't valid? I have pitched stuff using magic tricks before (I kid you not) and it worked out fine. Using a comic would be one of the less extreme things I have done!

Your whole response sounds like you are a very bitter individual and instead of constructive criticism you have decided just to shoot it down. thats fair enough and you're entitled to it, but I'm not one to dwell on negativity or negative people. That gets you nowhere.

I'm also sorry you haven't heard of me. Since I left uni I have made it my life's ambition to get your attention and you're telling me I've failed at this? Kick a man when he's down why dontcha! I'm not saying I'm a big-shot or anything like that as I'm not.

I thought posting on this site would be a good idea and maybe I'd get to know a few people that could mutually help each other, but I'm starting to think not.

I'm afraid I will abstain from reading your 'how to live your life' article as I am allergic to patronising text.


For all those who are interested (thanks to the few that have already emailed me - and for the guy who responded in this thread) I will be in touch soon. Maybe we could make it even more of a collab!

P.S. Chilari, good luck with your tv script. I really mean that.
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TheRealSadegh



Joined: 12 Dec 2011
Posts: 14

PostPosted: Wed Dec 14, 2011 5:26 pm    Post subject: Yikes Reply with quote

Don't get discouraged, some of us still do it just because we enjoy making art. That's the only reason I'm on these forums! Glad to see you read my post and I still look forward to possibly hearing from you!
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JedShepherd



Joined: 12 Dec 2011
Posts: 8

PostPosted: Wed Dec 14, 2011 5:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ha, I won't be discouraged.

I checked out both your sites. I like your stuff!

I'll send you and the other guys an email with the full spec to see what you think. Again, collab projects are about fun more than anything else. It's about making 'art' not a quick buck. Well it is to me anyway.

jed
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TheRealSadegh



Joined: 12 Dec 2011
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 14, 2011 8:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JedShepherd wrote:
ha, I won't be discouraged.

I checked out both your sites. I like your stuff!

I'll send you and the other guys an email with the full spec to see what you think. Again, collab projects are about fun more than anything else. It's about making 'art' not a quick buck. Well it is to me anyway.

jed


Agreed! Glad to hear you enjoyed it! I look forward to hearing more.

Justin
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Chilari
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 14, 2011 11:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You've got the wrong end of the stick, Jed. On this site, and on others, I have seen time and again situations where arists are asked to work for free of empty promises of future fame, or for the "opportunity" to get their name out there, or to work with someone who claims to be famous. And time and again I have seen such things turn out to be scams to get free art out of naive artists, while the promises they were made turn to dust because the person who asked the work of them never intended to pay them and found ways not to. I have heard, too, of situations where creators of work get screwed over by TV and film producers, who promise a cut of net profits and then the studios make sure there aren't any - Forrest Gump being the best known (look it up).

You don't have to find a professional artist with no other source of income in order to pay someone proper money; there are plenty of amateurs who take commissions. As any artist here knows, it take hours, even days, to produce a page. That's a lot of effort, a lot of time, that goes into producing every single page. To not pay even a penny for work done suggests one of two things: either the person asking for it is unprofessional, or they're trying to scam you. Even $10 a page is something. It shows you value the artist, it shows you understand the difficulties, and it shows you are committed to the project and, since you've put money into it, you're going to also put effort into making sure that investment doesn't go to waste.

I don't mean to sound bitter or patronising, but as a moderator of this forum I have a duty to protect the users from what might well be a scam - you have not been singled out here, similar warnings have been posted by me and others on similar posts. Writers and artists alike need to be aware of the value of artwork; undervaluing artwork undercuts professionals' incomes and makes it more difficult for amateurs to become professionals and make money from their skill.

The stickied post I mentioned is not "how to live your life", as you so wittily called it, but a guide on how writers who are looking for artists should structure their posts to ensure they have not missed out anything, and to increase their chances of finding an artist they can work with well. It also describes what we expect on this forum from people looking for artists. That you haven't already read it speaks volumes about your lack of respect for this forum and its users.

If you learned nothing from my first post, if you found it unconstructive, you were not reading it properly. I have told you where you can find forum guidelines on posting correctly. All of the information you need is there - had you taken the time to read it, you would know that.

Finally, I'd like the address the line "I am not looking for an established artist whose sole income comes from illustrating, more someone who does it as a hobby with potential to make a name for themselves." - Do you realise this proves what I say about your post being dubious? Offering an artist the "opportunity to make a name for themselves" is the oldest trick in the book of how to get free work from naive artists. Unless you can demonstrate that you have industry connections, can help them get their work into stores and onto websites, or something along those lines, it is an empty promise. Even if a webcomic writer of reknown - say, Ryan North - came in here with a promise like that, I'd be just as dubious, because they should know better than to make a promise like that. A good artist doesn't need help making a name for themselves if they can create good work and know their way around Twitter or Facebook. What they do need is money to pay for their materials and server costs for their website. If you knew anything about the webcomic industry, or the art industry in general, you would know this already. If you're not trying to scam people, do your research.
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vulpeslibertas
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 15, 2011 2:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chilari's not trying to be in your face. The "Posting thread" thread is more of a "How To" thread than a "Thou shall not" thread.

We're all pretty cool around here, but we tend to see a lot of "Writer looking for artist", so it gets old to see writers asking for art without proving their worth. There's a few simple things you can do to improve your pitch. Most of them are in that thread.

You're trying to lure in an artists, so go to the thread and see what artists want to see.
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JedShepherd



Joined: 12 Dec 2011
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 15, 2011 11:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

First of all, if it's a 'guide' then it's not set in stone.

I am not going to write a post the exact way you want me to I'm afraid. I believe everyone is different and you cannot judge people based on previous occasions when an artist got scammed.

Like I've said a couple of times before. I'm not claiming to be 'famous' or a 'big shot', I came here for fun and frolics and if I find like minded people who want to help me - as I am willing to help them FOR FREE - then woop woop.

I don't know how you want me to prove myself, I find it incredibly rotten that you suggest that.

For a forum moderator you are extremely unhelpful and actually trying to dissuade people from helping. I'm sure I'm not the only person you have put off this site and I'm sure I won't be the last.

If this is the treatment new people get around here then I won't come back.

I wonder what happened to you to become so distrustful of everyone. Im sure deep down you really do think you are trying to help but I think you have not only put off people from helping me, but also put me off coming back to the site.

I wanted an artist who was in it for the love of it and the IDEA. I write because I love it, I don't always get paid for the things I write, I just love writing. I was hoping to find someone here who had the same mentality. I realise this place is about 'business' and 'money' and that's fine as everyone needs to live, so I can't argue with that.

I don't know anything about webcomics really and I never said I did. I am proud to have met someone who is an authority on them though. I've called my mum to tell her.

Anyway, again, good luck with all your projects and hope you make alot of money from them.

Jed
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 15, 2011 2:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

First of all, a visual representation of a script concept is a storyboard; not a comic. They're similar, but have different requirements, especially in composition and portrayal of action.

Second, speaking as one of the few authors here who is a writer first and an artist...err...70th, my advice is that you not come on like your offer is a favor to anyone, especially when your offer is to do spec work for a project pitch. The fact is that if you don't have enough faith in your own project to cut a check and ensure the supporting art is done exactly the way you want, then there's no reason for anyone else to have the kind of faith you're asking for.

Consider whether you'd ask an outfitter to provide you with free canvas for your prospecting expedition. Sure, you may not need the canvas, but it'll make the job easier. At the same time, why should he risk his property on your venture if you aren't prepared to buy your own supplies?
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Chilari
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 15, 2011 6:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jed, you're just not getting it. CN has used a good example with the outfitter, but let's try something closer to home.

You said you love writing. You don't do it for the money, you do it because you enjoy it. I am the same. I have loads of writing projects going, including some fanfics which I know I'll NEVER get money for, but I enjoy writing them and that's why I do it.

Now let's say someone posted in a forum you frequent, asking members to write a short story about a character which the poster had already created, to help sell prints of that character. They promise a cut of 25% of profits for each poster sold after the first 20 (which will cover server costs), but don't want to pay up-front. They do, however, want to look over your shoulder as you write to make sure it's what they want. Would you write for them? I wouldn't. Here's why:

1. They want work to their specifications; thus they should pay a fixed dollar amount, not a percentage of future profits.

2. There's no guaruntee they will sell as many as 20 prints of their characters, and thus no guaruntee of any income at all.

3. Even if they sell 100 prints, you don't know what the profit margin is on those prints. The company producing them charges a certain amount, then there's postage and packaging, Paypal or a similar company which processes payment will take a cut - and if the currency has to be changed from Euros to US$ or whatever, it's going to be a bigger cut still - and then there are taxes and so on. The profit, at the end of the day, might just be $0.16 per print, leaving you with just $3.20 (that's 25% of 16 cents, which is 4 cents, multiplied by 100-20 prints, which is 80 prints, for a total of $3.20). Now if you've spent 30 hours working on that short story - not, I think you'll agree, an unreqasonable amount of time for discussion with the person who has asked for it, plotting, fixinf plot problems, working out characters, writing it, rewriting it, editing and proofreading - then you're going to feel you've been taken for a ride.

4. Have you heard of Mills and Boon? They produce cheesy romance stories. They have a bank of writers, and they send to those writers specifics of the stories they want written - the title, the names of the characters, certain plot points that must occur - and then ask the writers to fill in the gaps. I know two people who write for Mills and Boon - or rather, one who does and one who used to. Both have told me the same thing - they started because they love writing, and they love romance, but it isn't like writing for themselves. It is dull. It is an assignment. They have very limited freedom. And all the love of writing in the world doesn't change the fact that it's not the same. Enjoyment of "the Art" of writing has no bearing on writing for assignment.


What you are asking, Jed, is for arists to work to your specifications, without paying them. Mills and Boon pays writers upon publication of the story, AND they get royalties for books sold. All you're offering is royalties, and no guaruntee of publication. That is the main problem.

The second problem is the repeated claim that, all through this bogus offer, you're making it sound like you're doing the artist a favour, without demonstrating that you have the industry contacts that would convince anyone. What studios do you work with? What galleries do you have contacts with? What newspaper do you know the comic editor of? Which well known DC artists do you go out drinking with or play golf with? What, in short, is it that you are really offering the arist when you say the word "opportunity"? What help are you offering an artist "FOR FREE" (although actually if it's in exchange for services rendered, say production of 30-minutes-worth of comic pages*, that's not free, that's just using a non-cash form of exchange).

*That's the other problem. You've not specified how many pages you're looking for. 30 minutes worth could be 12 or 30 or 100 or 462 pages, depending on how much action it is, the pacing, the size of the panels and number of panels per page, how much dialogue there is, and many other factors. Not even specifying how much work you want done on your pitch is a major omission - which you wouldn't have made if you had read the guide.

Take a moment to think for a moment and consider what I am saying here. Answer the questions. Tell the artists you want to attract what you're really offering, what value it has, and what you want from them. Read the guide and maybe you'll learn how not to sound like someone trying to pull a fast one - because that is the overall feeling I am getting from your posts, and that is the issue I have here. If you sound like someone trying to scam people, that is how I will treat you. If you read the guidelines and post in an appropriate manner that makes it absolutely clear what the real-terms value of what you are offering and what you are asking for are, without sounding like a douche who thinks he's doing everyone a favour, I won't have any trouble with you.

And yes everyone is different, but the guidelines are there for a reason, it's to make sure that all bases are covered, that nothing is forgotten. You can phrase your sentences however you want, provided they don't cause offence and don't sound spammy or scammy. You can structure your pitch however you want, but there are certain things you must include, to make sure the situation is crystal clear to any potential artists reading your post. You can't go into McDonalds and ask for a meal which costs between $4.15 and $5.82, which includes mustard somewhere, and doesn't take more that 17 minutes to eat, but not tell them what food you want to eat. But that's what you're trying to do by refusing to even read the guidelines.
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JedShepherd



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PostPosted: Thu Dec 15, 2011 7:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Every paragraph you wrote is all about money money money. You're obsessed!

I am not making any 'claims' I'm a big shot. I think I've said in every post so far that I'm not. The only person saying that I'm one is yourself.

I'll start a new paragraph just so it's clear. I am not a big shot.

Please read the above sentence and the times I have said it before so it sinks in.


Okay let me try to simplify it so you understand.

I don't do anything just for money. If that's your sole reason for making something you are in the wrong game. If a band starts because they want to make money, not because they love songwriting, performing etc then they won't get very far.

Regarding specs, not sure if you read what I said in the other post but I mentioned I would send specs to those that showed an interest with the basic concept. There is no point telling a story to people who are not interested in the whole project, even for curiosity's sake.

Again, you want me to prove things. Prove I know this person and that person and frankly, it's a disgraceful way to conduct yourself. I've never been a person to name drop and I never will. If this does not tie in with your 'rules' then your rules are incredibly wrong. I did post a link in my first post to one high profile thing I've done but I now realise I should have posted several references from family and friends and mentioned who I've shared a pint with.

Its a simple case of a forum moderator wanting to thrust a bit of power at a 'newbie' and I've seen it happen on other forums before. I've never been the person attacked so this is new to me. Forgive me if I don't know the victim protocol.

I realise that you must get alot of writers asking for artists because everyone thinks they can write but only a few good people have a drawing talent. I do think everyone has a story to tell and everyone has some writing talent but some can express themselves a little better. My aim is to express myself a little better and hoped an artist could help.

As a moderator you are meant to be welcoming but you have been the complete opposite. You've tried to belittle me, my project and anyone who would dare to help me. You've been patronising, offensive and Ill-equipped for your job as someone meant to help people.

Thank you so much to those that showed interest.

I'm moving on from here now so won't be able to reply anymore but I wish everyone good luck with their projects.

It's all about the money right?

All the best

Jed
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Chilari
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 16, 2011 12:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am not trying to belittle you, but you've got such a victim complex you're absolutely determined to make me into some sort of bully - presumably to distract from the very real issues with your request for an artist.

While some points I have made are about money, there is a valid reason for it - asking amateur artists to work for free undercuts professional artists, making it harder for them to earn money, and undervalues the work of all artists. I also made it clear that doing work to someone else's rigourous specifications is not enjoyable and is not about the joy of the artform, and thus some recompense should be accounted for. Furthermore, paying for work demonstrates your commitment to it. These are points you have repeatedly ignored.

It's clear you're not interested in reading what I have to say. As I stated, I completely empathise with the desire to create something for the enjoyment of it - I gave the example of fanfiction which I write. I don't even share much of it, much less expect income from it. But creating something for one's own enjoyment, and creating something for someone else's financial gain are very different things. You are asking an artist to create artwork for free in order that your pitch to a TV studio might have a better chance of succeeding - and that, to my mind, is financially motivated, even if the story was originally created out of love. It is possible to have more than one motivation for creating something after all.

Generally speaking, proving one's worth in the webcomic community - that is, proving a promise of future income is worth something - generally comes down to linking to an existing webcomic you're involved in and quoting monthly pageviews, or stating who else you've worked with in the past - some artists and writers are fairly well known, even if they don't make money on their webcomics. Those without such links generally post sections of script, either from the proposed project, or some something else they've worked on in the past if they're worried about people stealing their work. While the link to a Wikipedia page demonstrates you've been fortunate enough to make a film with some rock stars, the page itself says nothing of the plot, the critical acclaim, reactions and whatnot, so as far as anyone can tell from that page, the film might well have been a flop. I could say I've written a novel, but as it's not been published, you have no way of assessing it, or the quality of the writing. You have to demonstrate you're worth working with. If you'd read the guide you'd know that.
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Chilari
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 16, 2011 1:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Okay here's the situation. I know you'll keep an eye on this thread even if you don't log in, because that's what I would do if I felt insulted and wrongly accused.

My initial post was rather too antagonistic and unwelcoming, and for that I apologise. I have seen far too many scams along similar lines to those you're proposing, not only here on TWCL but also elsewhere. As a result, I overreacted. I should have started with a subtler post, more a sort of testing-the-waters sort of thing to establish the situation before making assumptions about your intentions. Had I done that I don't believe we would have created an escalated argument like this.

However, while I accept that I was in the wrong, I don't believe all the blame lies with me. Had you desired to resolve the situation amicably, you could have done so, by reading the guide I referred you to, and attempting to establish common ground by expressing understanding of a point of view other than your own. Instead of this, it seems - from my point of view - that rather than reading my posts you skimmed them for something to argue about and accuse me about. Calling me bitter and distrusting, and accusing me of being obsessed with money, might make you feel smart but does not make you look good, and furthermore is provacative and hurtful. I have attempted to explain my motivations behind particular arguments in a logical manner, and rather than reacting with logical, well-considered arguments and explanations of your position, you merely reiterated what you'd already said or made personal remarks or witty comebacks. Perhaps you should consider the way you react in order to minimalise conflict in future. I shall certainly do so, for my part.

I don't like to argue and I certainly don't like to go to bed - as I must soon do, as I have work tomorrow - with an argument hanging over me, even if it is with someone on the internet I have never met. I hope we can resolve this.
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