TWCL

munkymu · Posted: Thu Mar 17, 2011 1:49 am Post subject:

rocketpig wrote:

True, maybe "very little" is understating it a bit. What I'm really driving at is SuitCase's point that the readers are somehow blessing us with their presence.

Technically they are. Without readers you're just some guy slaving away to no purpose. If you wanted that you could chuck your comic pages in the closet as you finished them, spend nothing and get nothing in return.

Not that there's any reason to deify them or bend over backwards to satisfy their every request, but you need them more than they need you and in larger numbers.
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smbhax.com · Posted: Thu Mar 17, 2011 3:31 am Post subject:

Darc wrote:

Really? Neat. Yeah, it's php so the issue number, page number, and number of pages ahead will automatically update when the Supporters side updates.

(Holy moly that is slick! :o)
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Darc · Joined: 30 Nov 1999 Posts: 474 Location: Massachusetts

smbhax.com wrote:

Darc wrote:

Really? Neat. Yeah, it's php so the issue number, page number, and number of pages ahead will automatically update when the Supporters side updates.

(Holy moly that is slick! Surprised

)

Yeah, Matt comes up with some interesting ideas. The CMS the site runs on - Clickthulu - was built by him. We couldn't find one that could handle the Supporters area well enough, so he decided to see what he could come up with. That, and he'd registered the Clickthulu domain a while back because he thought it sounded funny and needed to do something with it. Laughing

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bustertheclown · Joined: 01 Feb 2005 Posts: 18

munkymu wrote:

rocketpig wrote:

True, maybe "very little" is understating it a bit. What I'm really driving at is SuitCase's point that the readers are somehow blessing us with their presence.

Technically they are. Without readers you're just some guy slaving away to no purpose. If you wanted that you could chuck your comic pages in the closet as you finished them, spend nothing and get nothing in return.

Not that there's any reason to deify them or bend over backwards to satisfy their every request, but you need them more than they need you and in larger numbers.

This, right here.

Being disdainful of people who you don't see as properly reciprocating you for work you had essentially done on spec in the first place is just plain cynical and self-entitling.

Yes, it is a catch-22, but webcomickers have only themselves to blame by coming up with a system that puts them in such a position, and they certainly shouldn't be bitter when their audience sees fit to take the advantage that they have been freely given. The fact of the matter is that if earning an income is your primary goal, you need to figure out a way to guarantee payment before the delivery of the product. Real businesses don't run on freebies, hopes, dreams, and Google AdSense.

Zoe Robinson · Posted: Thu Mar 17, 2011 10:59 am Post subject:

bustertheclown wrote:

[Real businesses don't run on freebies, hopes, dreams, and Google AdSense.

Actually, they can.
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rocketpig · Joined: 20 Dec 2010 Posts: 404

bustertheclown wrote:

Real businesses don't run on freebies, hopes, dreams, and Google AdSense.

I'm friends with a guy who makes over $150,000 a year just from his site advertising and after five years, is only now launching a paid service for a specialized niche of his site. Is his business not "real"? If it's not, that means the Aston Martin he just bought is imaginary so I can starting making fun of him for it.
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rocketpig · Joined: 20 Dec 2010 Posts: 404

munkymu wrote:

rocketpig wrote:

True, maybe "very little" is understating it a bit. What I'm really driving at is SuitCase's point that the readers are somehow blessing us with their presence.

Technically they are. Without readers you're just some guy slaving away to no purpose. If you wanted that you could chuck your comic pages in the closet as you finished them, spend nothing and get nothing in return.

Not that there's any reason to deify them or bend over backwards to satisfy their every request, but you need them more than they need you and in larger numbers.

That's why I said I appreciate them stopping by but I'm not going to worship them. If they don't care enough to give me anything in return for my work, I'm not going to jump through hoops to make them happy.

It's not disdain, it's apathy. I'll spend my efforts on a real fanbase that interacts with me and cares about my site and comic, not pleasing a hypothetical user that may or may not get upset because I ask them to stop blocking adverts.
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thelanyard · Joined: 13 Apr 2006 Posts: 156 Location: St. Louis, Mo

Zoe Robinson wrote:

bustertheclown wrote:

[Real businesses don't run on freebies, hopes, dreams, and Google AdSense.

Actually, they can.

Those are nice exceptions, but they run on different business models than a webcomic would and a few do rely fairly heavily on some sort of ad serving mechanism which doesn't exactly make them exceptions at all.
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Zoe Robinson · Posted: Thu Mar 17, 2011 9:42 pm Post subject:

thelanyard wrote:

Those are nice exceptions, but they run on different business models than a webcomic would and a few do rely fairly heavily on some sort of ad serving mechanism which doesn't exactly make them exceptions at all.

You're clutching at straws there. Everything is exceptions right now. This is a wholly new business model that is still developing.

Moreover, some of us are already using "freebies, hopes, dreams, and Google AdSense" to pay our bills. I have been for the last 18 months and I have five friends who have been doing this for a lot longer.

The evidence for success is there if you look for it.
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smbhax.com · Posted: Fri Mar 18, 2011 4:32 am Post subject:

I'm surprised this is even an argument. There's this, for instance: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_self-sufficient_webcomics
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Casual Notice · Posted: Fri Mar 18, 2011 6:25 am Post subject:

The last three pages have been pretty silly. It was clear pretty early on that there was unlikely to be any consensus or even accommodation made, and all the arguments since then have just been growling over an old bone.

Here are the facts:

Most ad-carriers are responsible and responsive to their readers needs and wishes, and try their best to prevent intrusive, spammy, or invasive ads from bothering people.
Some ad-carriers, through laziness, incompetence or sheer dickery allow a surprising number of ads that would make a discount furniture dealer cry onto their sites. These are the people by which all ad-carriers are judged. It's not nice, and it's not fair, but it's a fact of life.
Most webcomic readers, even those with ad-blockers, seek some means of helping to support the authors of the webcomics they read. Not long ago, a friend of mine had an entire computer donated to him by a reader.
Some readers treat authors as if they were slave monkeys who should fall down in adoration for the favor of the reader's presence. They use ad-blaockers, but never seek any means of helping the author continue doing what their doing (but they're often the first to complain of a late update).
Asking people to turn off their ad-blockers isn't rude...exactly. It's a little whiney and, to some, it's tantamount to asking them to take off their shirt on a crowded city square.
Of over 10.000 webcomics, approximately 50 are self-sufficient. Of those, maybe 10 are successful enough that their author isn't sweating the rent each month.
the Cheese stands alone.

There: Argument over. Do what you want. Rationalize it in whatever way make you the most comfortable. Quit bitching.
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lexia · Joined: 12 Dec 2010 Posts: 80

correct me if I am wrong, but ad rev only works if people visit the ad's site, so if they have ad blockers more chances then not they won't visit the site anyway.. Or am I talking about a different ad...

For me I do not even go back to sites that have the flash pop ups.. even if the comic good only so much you can take.

Max Vaehling · Joined: 31 Mar 2007 Posts: 388 Location: Bremen, Germany

lexianee wrote:

correct me if I am wrong, but ad rev only works if people visit the ad's site, so if they have ad blockers more chances then not they won't visit the site anyway.. Or am I talking about a different ad...

There are ads that pay for clicks, and if people don't see them, they don't click. Right.

There are other ads that pay by a certain amount of views, no matter if people click or not. But, again, no see, no pay.

Then there's Project Wonderful, which probably most of the people here use, at least among others. PW pays based on bids. People bid based on what they think advertising on your site is worth, and the page views PW reports are definitely a factor. But there isn't any direct link between the amount of eyeballs you collect and the amount of money you get.
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smbhax.com · Posted: Fri Mar 18, 2011 11:31 pm Post subject:

There is if a PW bidder is running a campaign that has a min page view number as its criteria for bid placement. ;)

Also Casual Notice: nice summary, and I like the classic touch of bitching at people (on the Internet) to quit bitching. :D
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