 |
TWCL
Forums for The Webcomic List
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
BKO_Monkey
Joined: 07 Mar 2011
Posts: 117
|
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
Lord Pandar
Resident Loony Detector
Joined: 04 Mar 2007
Posts: 2517
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
BKO_Monkey
Joined: 07 Mar 2011
Posts: 117
|
 Posted: Thu Mar 10, 2011 5:26 pm Post subject: |
 |
|
| Lord Pandar wrote: | Now to be fair I've only read a few of the actual comics, butttttt....
| Quote: | | The Wacky Guy...manchild...80’s toy collection...play above work |
| Quote: | | The Sarcastic Guy...sardonic know-it-all...sarcasm...sass-itude |
| Quote: | | The girl...married to The Wacky Guy...voice of reason |
If there was a gamez comic cliche drinking game I would have died of Alcohol poisoning just reading that About Page. |
Lol, damn, yeah, I gotta do something about that old ass About Page. The fact is, those characters (as stereotypical sounding as they are) are reasonable facsimiles of myself, my wife and my brother. I am a ridiculous, goofy, play before work kinda guy. And here's my toy room:
We just picked out who we were and created characters around them. Not the most original way to do it, but they say write what you know 
That's a completely fair assessment though! Please let me know what you think of the comics when you read some more. I appreciate the feedback! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
RustMonster
Joined: 19 Mar 2010
Posts: 587
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
BKO_Monkey
Joined: 07 Mar 2011
Posts: 117
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
RustMonster
Joined: 19 Mar 2010
Posts: 587
|
| Posted: Thu Mar 10, 2011 5:54 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| BKO_Monkey wrote: | | Lol, wow, that bingo card is awesome, who made it? |
I made it years ago and, sadly, I haven't had to update it because there's still plenty of new comics showing up with the same old cliches, over and over and over.
| BKO_Monkey wrote: | | Yay, it doesn't look like I have a bingo (your opinions may vary)! |
I didn't look through enough of your strips to know if you got a Bingo or not, because really, the "Wacky, Snarky, The Girl and the Angry Thing" combination is a complete and total dealbreaker for me. It's been done over and over and over and over again. Your Wacky and Snarky even LOOK like animal-versions of Gabe and Tycho. You might as well have named your characters Ethan, Lucas and Lilah and Zeke.
What I'm saying is: your comic is the cheap, unpainted dollar-store knock-off of an idea from almost a decade ago. Couldn't you have at least tried something new? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
BKO_Monkey
Joined: 07 Mar 2011
Posts: 117
|
| Posted: Thu Mar 10, 2011 6:29 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| RustMonster wrote: | | BKO_Monkey wrote: | | Lol, wow, that bingo card is awesome, who made it? |
I made it years ago and, sadly, I haven't had to update it because there's still plenty of new comics showing up with the same old cliches, over and over and over.
| BKO_Monkey wrote: | | Yay, it doesn't look like I have a bingo (your opinions may vary)! |
I didn't look through enough of your strips to know if you got a Bingo or not, because really, the "Wacky, Snarky, The Girl and the Angry Thing" combination is a complete and total dealbreaker for me. It's been done over and over and over and over again. Your Wacky and Snarky even LOOK like animal-versions of Gabe and Tycho. You might as well have named your characters Ethan, Lucas and Lilah and Zeke.
What I'm saying is: your comic is the cheap, unpainted dollar-store knock-off of an idea from almost a decade ago. Couldn't you have at least tried something new? |
That's a little harsh, but fair. Not a fan of Ctrl-Alt-Del either, are we?
Honestly, most everything is based on something else, it's just a matter of how aware you (the reader and the writer) are. There's really nothing new out there that hasn't been done (especially in webcomics). But it can be done in a way that makes the reader forget it's been done before.
I admit, we haven't done a good job of avoiding the cliche content or masking that the concept isn't orignal. Geeky, video-game related things (an over-saturated market) is what we gravitate towards. I guess that's why there are so many of them because a lot of webcomic-ers are geeky video game obsessed folks. We all try to put our own spin on the things we love.
I think the honest truth is we just want to tell jokes, not so much a story, so the characters/world have never really been a big focus for us. If it was a leprechaun and a talking streetlamp in the park making the jokes would it be different for you?
What I'm trying to find out at this point is, beyond the cliche, are there funny jokes there? Or is the cliche so blatant it's making that part invisible.
Thanks again for your feedback. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
RustMonster
Joined: 19 Mar 2010
Posts: 587
|
| Posted: Thu Mar 10, 2011 8:57 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| BKO_Monkey wrote: |
Honestly, most everything is based on something else, it's just a matter of how aware you (the reader and the writer) are. There's really nothing new out there that hasn't been done (especially in webcomics). But it can be done in a way that makes the reader forget it's been done before.
I admit, we haven't done a good job of avoiding the cliche content or masking that the concept isn't orignal. Geeky, video-game related things (an over-saturated market) is what we gravitate towards. I guess that's why there are so many of them because a lot of webcomic-ers are geeky video game obsessed folks. We all try to put our own spin on the things we love. |
Basing your work on something you love is important, but you don't seem to be putting any of your own spin on it at all. It looks like you're doing the exact same thing a thousand other webcomics are doing, and you know it. Banking on your readers' ignorance of other webcomics is a pretty terrible strategy and doesn't really validate the unoriginality.
| BKO_Monkey wrote: |
I think the honest truth is we just want to tell jokes, not so much a story, so the characters/world have never really been a big focus for us. If it was a leprechaun and a talking streetlamp in the park making the jokes would it be different for you?
|
No, because that's just randomness. I'll get back to this in a bit.
| BKO_Monkey wrote: |
What I'm trying to find out at this point is, beyond the cliche, are there funny jokes there? Or is the cliche so blatant it's making that part invisible. |
In the interest of giving thorough feedback, I read through your archives. (I'd just hit random a few times before.) My overall impression of your work as a whole is that you don't really know what you're doing. You clearly have a sense of humor and can recognize jokes, but you don't really know how to structure one. I know: you're already thinking "but explaining the joke ruins it." but you're getting ahead of me. Bear with me a moment.
A joke is [SETUP] -> [PUNCHLINE]. You'd think something like that would be difficult to screw up, but I'll point out several things in your archives that get it wrong. To begin, it's called a punchline because it has PUNCH. It's like a sudden slap to the reader's face, something that catches them off-guard and makes them reevaluate their expectations. THIS DOES NOT MEAN BEING RANDOM AND WACKY. (Sorry for the caps but most people don't get this point.) It works best is when the Setup sets up the reader's expectations, and the punchline subverts the expectation in an UNEXPECTED but STILL LOGICAL WAY.
That's a little dry, so let me use an example. This is one of the oldest jokes, but it's a great example:
"Some people are terrible. Take my wife... please."
The setup is everything leading to the word "please." Up until the punchline, the audience's expectation is that the speaker is going to use his wife as an example of a terrible person. "Take my wife, for example..." Instead, the punchline turns it into a plea. He's NOT saying "Take my wife, for example..." he's saying "Take my wife AWAY FROM ME." It's still a logical conclusion to the setup, but it's unexpected, so it's funny.
Building on this, anything that doesn't contribute to the punchline is going to actively weaken it. Padding and fluff just soften that punch. With our example joke, the speaker doesn't go into other terrible people or reasons why his wife is terrible. He uses just enough setup to get to the punchline, delivers the punchline, then ENDS THE JOKE. He doesn't labor on with generic one-liners like a bad sit-com. It's clean and done.
So how does this apply to your comic? Here's some samples I've pulled out that show how this technique is NOT being applied.
In this strip we have a setup, but no punchline. An angry glare is not funny because it's a perfectly logical and expected response to having flaws pointed out.
Same thing here. The dude sees something that would reasonably make him paranoid, then says he's paranoid. There's no twist.
The concept behind this one has merit, but there's some problems. One, there's way too many words. (In a typical panel, each character should get one sentence. You can push it a little, but you're just abusing it there.) Two, the twist gets lost somewhere in the middle. There's no clean punchline then ending. Three, it's about 10 years too late to be a witty observation.
This one has the same problems. Too many words: you don't need to explain what you mean by "Standard" and "Obscure." Your readers know these words. "Sad, just sad." isn't funny in any context, because it's not a twist or a reversal. It's just underlining the point you already made. It could be a funny strip but you need to trim down the setup and end it with the punch.
(P.S. I appreciate the Arm-Fall-Off Boy reference.)
I barely get this one. If they're puns, they're too literal to actually be puns. I'm not sure what's up with the closeup panels. Are they meant to be mugging for the camera? That's really not helping. Again, the end isn't funny because it's a completely expected result from the setup. No subversion.
This one is a Penny Arcade one. (The game is different but it's the same joke.) Notice how Tycho doesn't just say "I don't want to get re-addicted," because that's Flat and boring. We actually watch him struggle, expressively, and we get the unexpected subversion of him losing his resolve over something he finds endearing.
Outside people who personally know you, I can't imagine who would care about this one. I get that it's more of a "holiday greeting card" to your readers than a standard strip, but it's boring and out of place. Especially when I read it in March.
This one isn't even close to a joke. It's literally "I stabbed a guy I don't like." I don't like Twilight either but simply watching the twinklepire get stabbed in effigy is not entertaining.
I said I'd get back to your "leprechaun and a talking streetlamp" point, so here it is: Self-insert characters are terrible for too many reasons for me to get into. I get that you just need a couple characters to deliver the jokes through, but "me and my friend" shouldn't be those characters. (Neither should Wacky Manchild and Snarky Bestfriend. Gabe and Tycho already exist. You aren't them.) "Leprechaun and a talking streetlamp" is just random, and doesn't fit the bill either.
An example of a comic that gets it right is Manly Guys Doing Manly Things. The Commander has a personality of his own and fits into the universe the jokes are told in, without feeling like a Mary-Sue. He has an existence outside bland one-liners. Jokes about Pokemon and Duke Nukem are made, but are made through natural character interaction and not "Boy that Duke Nukem game sure hasn't come out yet, has it?" observations.
My honest advice to you guys is to put down the webcomic for a while and work on how to tell a joke, then to start up again with new characters who aren't trite cliches we've seen a thousand times before. And aren't self-inserts, because that's sad. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Lord Pandar
Resident Loony Detector
Joined: 04 Mar 2007
Posts: 2517
|
| Posted: Thu Mar 10, 2011 9:35 pm Post subject: |
|
|
RustMonster does the best takedowns. _________________ 
S*P*Q*R |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
BKO_Monkey
Joined: 07 Mar 2011
Posts: 117
|
| Posted: Fri Mar 11, 2011 8:30 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| RustMonster wrote: | | Basing your work on something you love is important, but you don't seem to be putting any of your own spin on it at all. It looks like you're doing the exact same thing a thousand other webcomics are doing, and you know it. Banking on your readers' ignorance of other webcomics is a pretty terrible strategy and doesn't really validate the unoriginality. |
We don't hide that the idea isn't original, or that it's not an over-saturated market. So we're not banking on any kind of ignorance here. We have fans that like our work and also like other video game comics. And I think "thousands" might be exagerating but I don't have any solid numbers in front of me.
| RustMonster wrote: | | No, because that's just randomness. I'll get back to this in a bit. |
Randomness can be pretty funny in my opinion. Look at Doctor Tran and Charlie the Unicorn. Maybe this isn't your kind of funny though.
I think I just figured out why one of the "cliches" on your bingo card is "Rejects Feedback". That's not a cliche. It's a natural reaction to having your work shat on. It's self-fullfilling prophecy. It's kind of a rule that when you tell someone they don't like what you're doing and that it annoys them, they're just going to keep right at it a) to annoy you b) to prove you wrong. Granted, some people go a little far with their reponse to critics, but I can see why.
Granted, I do appreciate that you've given me some honest, legitimite feedback to work with. Not all of our comics are gold (some of them are bad, and I'll be the first to admit to this), but we put everything up that we work on so we can learn from it. I'm going to take a lot of it to heart and work on making the comic better. Everyone got their start somewhere. PVP and Penny Arcade were both terrible (in my opinion) when they started. Obviously now, after over a decade, they've improved. This is our starting point. You may not think it's a good one, but it will grow and change as the years go on.
| Lord Pandar wrote: | | RustMonster does the best takedowns. |
But Lord Pandar, you're just a giant douche. Your the kind of guy that waits around in a forum like this for the kind of webcomic to come along that you don't like and to watch it get taken down a notch. What are you, in highschool? I didn't think this forum was about taking anybody down, but if that's what it's all about for you, that's truly sad.
A lot of our fans have told us that we do good work. And they let us know when it sucks balls. We do have some funny ones in there though. RustMonster, I had a look through your webcomic, http://rustyandco.com. I have to say, I really like the art, the premise is good (at least it's a different spin on D&D comics), but I don't think I'm going to take too many comedy lessons from you any time soon. I'm guessing it's supposed to be more story driven, and that's just my opinion. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Lord Pandar
Resident Loony Detector
Joined: 04 Mar 2007
Posts: 2517
|
| Posted: Sat Mar 12, 2011 2:23 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| BKO_Monkey wrote: | | But Lord Pandar, you're just a giant douche. Your the kind of guy that waits around in a forum like this for the kind of webcomic to come along that you don't like and to watch it get taken down a notch. What are you, in highschool? I didn't think this forum was about taking anybody down, but if that's what it's all about for you, that's truly sad. |
Nah, I come here looking for wicked good comics, but most are just kinda okay or pretty bad. And by Rustmonster doing the best takedowns, I mean he doesn't just say "this sucks", which would get boring pretty quick - he says "this sucks" in a more professionaller way & then explains why in great detail. We learn something. Well, some people do.
Anyway, keep making the crazy comics bro. 
_________________
S*P*Q*R |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
BKO_Monkey
Joined: 07 Mar 2011
Posts: 117
|
| Posted: Mon Mar 14, 2011 12:50 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Lord Pandar wrote: | | BKO_Monkey wrote: | | But Lord Pandar, you're just a giant douche. Your the kind of guy that waits around in a forum like this for the kind of webcomic to come along that you don't like and to watch it get taken down a notch. What are you, in highschool? I didn't think this forum was about taking anybody down, but if that's what it's all about for you, that's truly sad. |
Nah, I come here looking for wicked good comics, but most are just kinda okay or pretty bad. And by Rustmonster doing the best takedowns, I mean he doesn't just say "this sucks", which would get boring pretty quick - he says "this sucks" in a more professionaller way & then explains why in great detail. We learn something. Well, some people do.
Anyway, keep making the crazy comics bro. |
Hmmm, bad grammar combined with antagonism while utilizing the words "wicked" and "bro". I don't think I'd want your kind following any work I do, let alone have any respect for your feedback. Tell me, how popped is your collar right now "broseph"?
At least Rustmonster provides usable feedback. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Lord Pandar
Resident Loony Detector
Joined: 04 Mar 2007
Posts: 2517
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
BKO_Monkey
Joined: 07 Mar 2011
Posts: 117
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
BKO_Monkey
Joined: 07 Mar 2011
Posts: 117
|
| Posted: Thu Apr 07, 2011 1:41 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Here's our most recent one. I'm particularly proud of how the art came out on this one:
http://www.twxxd.com/?p=1478
Let me know what you think |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
