TWCL

[KEZ]

The one that always ticks me off is "helpless female protagonist" syndrome. Mostly, this is in movies however, and I've noticed a lot of comics going totally-left-field-ANTI HFP. Which kind of ticks me off even more. Anyone ever hear of a nice middle?

*agrees with all of what Iron Spike has said*
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[f2x]

For some reason I find myself nodding in agreement with Iron Spike, and yet simultaneously guilty of committing many of the transgressions she portrays. Does this make me a bad person?
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[eSJayBee]

It seems Iron Spike has conquered this thread with her rather accurate list.
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Quarter Four

[Rob Powell]

KEZ wrote:

The one that always ticks me off is "helpless female protagonist" syndrome. Mostly, this is in movies however, and I've noticed a lot of comics going totally-left-field-ANTI HFP. Which kind of ticks me off even more. Anyone ever hear of a nice middle? *agrees with all of what Iron Spike has said*

It ticks me off too!
I'm totally sick of the "girl in a rock band/cheerleader/whatever who's also a crimefighter and doesn't ever need any help and never shows a weakness" comic, myself. While I loathe the helpless female character, I think I loathe this type of character even more, simply because it's been done to death.
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[Lord Pandar]

Iron Spike wrote:

- Panel background: Google Image Search results, run through a Photoshop filter

Hey, come on. If it's done right it's really a sort of "found art" (not saying I do it right, but it can be well done).
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S*P*Q*R

[munkymu]

Things I loathe (in addition to Spike's list):

Introductions:

- Fantasy comics that start off with a world-creation myth, or any other lengthy piece of exposition on world-building. The author loves their creation SO MUCH that they have to tell you about it right away! This also includes those awful "dating profile" character introductions. Save them for the cast page!
- Any comic that starts with an epic battle between two characters who are any combination of mysterious, vampiric, teenage, werewolf, wizard, smart-alecky and/or whose character design wouldn't look out of place in a Final Fantasy game. Bonus points if the bad guy sneers.

Characters:

- Stupid Sitcom Dad or other male character everyone beats on for no real reason
- The Evil Cute Thing - Bun Bun from Sluggy Freelance or Bucky from Get Fuzzy. Look, a cute animal! But it's EVIL! All too often, the ECT gets more and more screen time as the rest of us think "will someone kick the shit out of this critter already?" Never suffers the consequences for its assholish actions. Or if it does, they aren't lasting.

Plots:

- Love saves the world. I think the only time this didn't make me hurl was in Dan Simmons's The Rise of Endymion, and even there I had to squint and say "Hmmmmmm."
- The Gotta Catch 'Em All fantasy -- where the hero travels the land picking up companions and visiting temples to pad out the plot. I blame LotR and pretty much any and all Japanese RPGs for this.
- Naive racism or sexism - where some social group is unsubtly and unjustifiably oppressed; bonus points if the main character belongs to said social group or is a half-breed outcast.
- Destiny, prophecy and fate - as soon as some character starts blathering about their destiny, I'm out of there. Maybe there are comics that handle this well. Mostly it seems to be a way to botch character motivation and explore free will with all the grace of a boulder on a skateboard.

I'm sure there's plenty more that irritates me.

I see no point in hating whole genres like videogame comics or sprite comics, though. That's like hating cheese. Chances are, there's some form of cheese out there that's perfect for you, but if you just dismiss it all you'll never find it. Although I guess things like "rape fantasy comics" are a genre too...
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[hajrarara]

o yea - introductions are pretty bad!
There was one good introduction in the digital entertainment world that I ever ever saw - and it went on in the 1995 computer adventure game: The Neverhood!


(although, maybe if I hadn't been a wee teenager back then, and if it wasn't a first game i ever played, it would not impress me so much to learn it by heart... )
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[KEZ]

munkymu wrote:

Things I loathe (in addition to Spike's list): Introductions: - Fantasy comics that start off with a world-creation myth, or any other lengthy piece of exposition on world-building. The author loves their creation SO MUCH that they have to tell you about it right away! This also includes those awful "dating profile" character introductions. Save them for the cast page! - Any comic that starts with an epic battle between two characters who are any combination of mysterious, vampiric, teenage, werewolf, wizard, smart-alecky and/or whose character design wouldn't look out of place in a Final Fantasy game. Bonus points if the bad guy sneers.

Ouch, crash and buuuurrrrrnnnn.
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[Chilari]

Any story at all that starts with an epic battle... whether it's a comic or a novel or a film, is always a bad sign. Ditto for the naive racism or sexism point.

A story in which starts with an epic battle between two characters who don't sneer at each other and are fully developed, or a plot in which two countries are pretty xenophobic and enslave as many of the others as they can during the war which leads the aforementioned characters to fight is fine, however. Or it'd better be. I've been writing that thing two years now...
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"S*P*Q*R"

[Kail]

Honestly, threads like this kind of bug me. The OP doesn't like Fantasy comics, Iron doesn't like comics that use Comic Sans. I write a Fantasy comic that uses Comic Sans. So what am I supposed to do with this information? It's like someone walking up to me and saying "I don't like your shirt" and then walking away. How am I supposed to react to that? I don't know why they're saying this, they don't give reasons (or at least, many of them don't). Do they have some kind of reason for disliking it, should I change what I'm doing, is it something that even applies to me? I have no idea. All I'm left with is the vague impression that I should be pissed off at these people. Seems like a bit of a downer to me.

Anyways, enough of my whining...

Moving on to the lists, it looks like I've got almost the full set (I assume there's some kind of prize?), but I'm not sure about this one:

Iron Spike wrote:

Drama. (snip) - Foe art, made and/or received and prominently displayed and fussed over

What's Foe art? Like, character art for the villain, or art from someone you consider a foe? I don't know that I've heard this term before.
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[munkymu]

[quote="KEZ"]

munkymu wrote:

Things I loathe (in addition to Spike's list): Ouch, crash and buuuurrrrrnnnn.

If was you... I'd start your comic on page 13. Here you've got someone with a clear dilemma -- they want to help people who are losing, but are scared of dying themselves. Page turning material! If you colour it, you can make it clear that there are two sides, and this guy is on one of them. A little later on, once we've gotten to know and like a few of the characters, you spring the "last stand" thing on us. Oh no! People we care about are going to die!

You can provide the backstory for everything else as needed. For example, the oaths people swear by will tell the reader things about the religion.

And I'd cut out a bunch of that annoying narration: "Ten minutes later Ian realizes he is lost, just like the enemy, in the Labyrinth." Why can't you just show the guy in a giant maze and have him think "I'm lost!"?
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[toydivision]

munkymu wrote:

Things I loathe (in addition to Spike's list): The Evil Cute Thing - Bun Bun from Sluggy Freelance or Bucky from Get Fuzzy. Look, a cute animal! But it's EVIL! All too often, the ECT gets more and more screen time as the rest of us think "will someone kick the shit out of this critter already?" Never suffers the consequences for its assholish actions. Or if it does, they aren't lasting.

Oh yes, I hate those fuckers, Good for t-shirts!
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[KEZ]

[quote="munkymu"]

KEZ wrote:

munkymu wrote: Things I loathe (in addition to Spike's list): Ouch, crash and buuuurrrrrnnnn. If was you... I'd start your comic on page 13. Here you've got someone with a clear dilemma -- they want to help people who are losing, but are scared of dying themselves. Page turning material! If you colour it, you can make it clear that there are two sides, and this guy is on one of them. A little later on, once we've gotten to know and like a few of the characters, you spring the "last stand" thing on us. Oh no! People we care about are going to die! You can provide the backstory for everything else as needed. For example, the oaths people swear by will tell the reader things about the religion. And I'd cut out a bunch of that annoying narration: "Ten minutes later Ian realizes he is lost, just like the enemy, in the Labyrinth." Why can't you just show the guy in a giant maze and have him think "I'm lost!"?

After more than 3 years of doing this, that makes perfect sense, and is almost how I would start it, if I were to restart it (oh yes, I've considered it many a time). Unfortunately, inexperience sucks. Ah, well. Ever forward, eh?
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[James Sawatsky]

I read and re-read Spike's list praying nothing I did was on it... The only one I think I'm guilty of is the no backgrounds... There have been a few strips where there is no background to be seen... and I'm actually ashamed of them... If I ever put them out in a treasury or something, I will be throwing a background or two in. I really need to start making 3D models or something of common areas (Jaie's apartment, Tammy's, Faces Coffee Shop) so I can regulate the layouts etc. Oh well. If I'm pissing anyone off with my breaking any of ther other "rules", please lemme know. I want this strip to be around for awhile.

One thing I can't stand is characters that are complete ripoffs from obscure shows or games that most people don't watch/play. Just because YOU think it is underground and only YOU have EVER seen it, trust me, there are hundreds in this forum alone that have read the book that only ran 3 issues, played the game that was pulled from the shelf due to lack of interest, or watched the TV show from the 70's that was on for 3 weeks before being cancelled. You're not that special. And don't use Tupac as a main character 1. we know it's him, 2. likeness rights'll be frickin expensive if his estate ever finds out.

[munkymu]

KEZ wrote:

After more than 3 years of doing this, that makes perfect sense, and is almost how I would start it, if I were to restart it (oh yes, I've considered it many a time). Unfortunately, inexperience sucks. Ah, well. Ever forward, eh?

See... more beginners should consider writing short comics. But no... everyone's got an epic to tell.

Kail wrote:

Honestly, threads like this kind of bug me. The OP doesn't like Fantasy comics, Iron doesn't like comics that use Comic Sans. I write a Fantasy comic that uses Comic Sans. So what am I supposed to do with this information?

Honestly? People who dislike whole genres... well, they are just not your intended audience. You can't do anything about them. All you can do is try to avoid the cliches for your genre, and you need a fan of the genre to really dig in and tell you what those are.

As for Comic Sans -- why did you pick this font? Did you look at a variety of fonts suitable for comics and think to yourself "yes, this one is the one I like best for the reasons foo, bar, and baz." Or did you pick this font because it was the only default font installed on your computer that didn't look like it came out of an accounting report? I think the main problem with Comic Sans is that it is the font of least resistance, and not a particularly great one at that. I suspect people would rail about it less if most of the people who used it had reasons for using it that were better than "well... it was there and it's got 'comic' in the title!"

So. If you have good reasons for using Comic Sans, you might as well keep using it. You'll get some flak for it but hey -- you can defend your choice. If you picked it as a default, download and try out some other comic fonts.
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