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Lo (Aquapunk)



Joined: 09 Oct 2009
Posts: 45

PostPosted: Fri Apr 19, 2013 12:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Metruis wrote:
Lo (Aquapunk) wrote:
I'll link to underappreciated stories I genuinely love. I give those the most space and attention, since those are the most important to me. I don't know why more people don't do this; it makes links pages easier to digest and look at.

And as a reader, when I go to your links page it's not to see which popular comics you read, but because I'm hoping to discover a new read that falls along well with what I just read.


'Zactly. And if I'm really interested in your taste, and your opinions and experiences with other stories/media, then I'll probably be following you on tumblr or FB or something and will be hoping to get more posts along these lines that go in much more detail than a links page ever could.
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mcmasters



Joined: 28 Jun 2012
Posts: 436

PostPosted: Fri Apr 19, 2013 1:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lo (Aquapunk) wrote:
Marscaleb wrote:
What guarantee do I have that I would enjoy any of those comics? Why should I waste my time with them?


I dunno! This is why I rarely look at anyone's links pages: they don't tell me anything.


This has been in the back of my head throughout my entire thinking on this. A, no one cares about my opinion, and B, few people see my site to have a chance to see my opinions on other webcomics anyway. So to take it too seriously would be kind of ridiculous.

I appreciate everyone's responses on this thread, in a way it has been a peek into personalities. I do think I have decided once and for all how to handle my links page. I will create and link soon.

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Metruis
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 19, 2013 8:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Marscaleb wrote:
Lo (Aquapunk) wrote:
My #1 rule with my links page is to not link to stuff that I feel are already enormously popular. They don't really need me to do it, it takes up precious real estate


Metruis wrote:

And as a reader, when I go to your links page it's not to see which popular comics you read, but because I'm hoping to discover a new read that falls along well with what I just read.


That is a fair point, but I don't think you should diminish a comic just because it is popular.
Sometimes people need to see a comic being praised by a lot of people before they start reading it. I've certainly been that way at times.

I wasn't actually diminishing comics because they're popular, only that as an avid comic reader, I've already heard of most of them and I'm more interested in links to things I haven't already read. Like say, I would rather a link to your comic, which has a handful of pages and had I not been on TWCL, I never would have found and read, than a link to The Meek.

BUT since we're on that topic.

When people go on and frequently praise a comic or for that matter any other work for its amazingness and rave about how people are dumb for not liking it and how your life is incomplete for not having seen it... I automatically start getting a slight sour, distasteful feel in my metaphorical mouth. There are in fact a few popular comics out there that are perfectly good comics (and some non-comic media), that have certain traits that irk me but otherwise are perfectly good comics (or other media), that I will not touch just to spite the freakin' fanboy/girls who will NOT SHUT UP ABOUT HOW AMAZING THESE THINGS ARE afjkhfg.

So it has the opposite influence on some of us.

I never ever would have read Homestuck if I'd realized it had the following it has. Fandoms terrify me. Especially when fandoms are all like, your life is incomplete for not reading this! I usually stay away... far away... I can't even begin to describe how annoying I find it when someone starts telling me that I have to do this or else I will die because it's so amazing. Kay, I got it. I'm just going to go over here in case that's catching.

In short, I really don't need to know that you, like the last 20 small fantasy comics I read and checked out the links page for, read The Meek. I got it. Everyone but me likes it.

But my point was not to deride. I've at least checked out most popular, larger name comics, I click lots of links, lots of webcomic ads, lots of signatures. I've decided whether or not I like them, I really would rather find new, or smaller comics so that I can read something I haven't read before, basically. And there really isn't a good source for finding comics anymore, no great modern up to date archive of things on the web that's not popularity based, so I take what I can get: links pages and comic surfing.
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MindChimera



Joined: 03 Feb 2013
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 19, 2013 7:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Metruis wrote:
I wasn't actually diminishing comics because they're popular, only that as an avid comic reader, I've already heard of most of them and I'm more interested in links to things I haven't already read.

I agree with that, but I also agree that sometimes you just happen to be the last one to hear about some really interesting webcomic, so I personally don't seeing the more popular ones on people's link pages.

Some people who look at links pages will be people that are already famililar, but others might not read a whole lot yet or even very often.

I like selective lists with short or easy to read descriptions for my short attention span. But I also don't read peoples' links pages very often either, now that I think about it.

Metruis wrote:
I never ever would have read Homestuck if I'd realized it had the following it has. Fandoms terrify me. Especially when fandoms are all like, your life is incomplete for not reading this! I usually stay away... far away... I can't even begin to describe how annoying I find it when someone starts telling me that I have to do this or else I will die because it's so amazing. Kay, I got it. I'm just going to go over here in case that's catching.

I wouldn't avoid reading something because of the fanbase, but I'm not fond of those people either. I just can't stomach that childish mentality of "you need to do this or die" anymore, and someone who says that really needs to broaden their horizons.

And Homestuck... is horrendously boring. I haven't read very much of it, but what I've heard is that "it starts out really bad for a long time, then get REALLY good." I'd rather read and support something that starts out interesting and picks up.
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Varethane



Joined: 18 Apr 2008
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 19, 2013 8:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've been the last one to find out about a popular comic before... repeatedly, even. I think the only comics I found early were The Meek (which I beta-read before it was even in colour), Spindrift, and Ava's Demon (which..... I think is becoming popular now?? It is, right? I hope it is... I'm not gonna take it off my links page though).

I like sharing the things I like (: If someone finds a really good comic for the first time because of me, that is super cool! Funny story... when a friend of mine made their own links page for the first time a year and a half or so ago, they added a comic to it I'd never seen before, which when I read it almost immediately became my absolute favourite (halfway through chapter 2 was when I realized I was in love)-- and I'd honestly never even heard of it before, although the comment pages were full of people discussing the latest pages, and it had a very active formspring and a decently-detailed wiki. It looked like it was pretty popular, despite having escaped my notice for so long; and when I asked my friend why they hadn't said something about it before (as this particular comic incorporated a lot of both of our favourite tropes), they said they'd assumed I was already reading it.

I do get turned off of things when people praise them at me too effusively, or try to hound me into reading them. But seeing the same banner show up on multiple links pages doesn't really have that same effect; instead, if I know the creators of a lot of popular comics like it, I figure that maybe that means it is going to be worth my time to read?
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Marscaleb



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PostPosted: Fri Apr 19, 2013 9:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lo (Aquapunk) wrote:
am I really "diminishing" it by not linking to it? Am I personally taking something away from the creators of Oglaf that they rightfully deserve and would not otherwise get if I didn't link to them?


Yeah. Readers.

Isn't the idea of a links page to direct people to something they might not have read before? And who are you to declare that ALL of your readers have heard of Oglaf before?

A little off topic (but it proves what I'm saying) every single comic that was mentioned in this thread as being some profoundly popular comic is one that I have never heard of before.
I would have expected examples of popular comic to be Sluggy Freelance, Dr. McNinja, or Penny Arcade. But these ones you folks have listed, I swear to God, I have never heard of before. At best Homestruck sounds slightly familiar.

People, the Internet is huge. It is full of many, many circles. Honestly, how conceited is it for us to assume that something we have heard of has been heard of by everyone else? That's us taking our own experiences and perceptions and applying them to other people.

Not to mention: What about people who just discovered webcomics to begin with? I don't mean individual webcomics, I mean the fact that people make comics and post them for free on the internet, at all. There's a lot of people I meet in real life who have not heard of this before. There's also new people being born each day, and they usually don't find out about webcomic until high school.
Sometimes we forget this. And especially with people who are new to the phenomenon, how exactly are we to assume they have heard of any particular title? I see the same thing with my nephews and video games.

Metruis wrote:

When people go on and frequently praise a comic or for that matter any other work for its amazingness and rave about how people are dumb for not liking it and how your life is incomplete for not having seen it... I automatically start getting a slight sour, distasteful feel in my metaphorical mouth. There are in fact a few popular comics out there that are perfectly good comics (and some non-comic media), that have certain traits that irk me but otherwise are perfectly good comics (or other media), that I will not touch just to spite the freakin' fanboy/girls who will NOT SHUT UP ABOUT HOW AMAZING THESE THINGS ARE afjkhfg.


I understand, and I in fact often feel the same way, and I even thought of this as I was posting my earlier response.

But I have also been around for a while, and I've learned a couple things about this. Sometimes, you SHOULD be listening to what these masses of people are saying. I spent a lot of time not watching Arrested Development because everyone kept talking about it. And then I finally watched some of it, and realized how stupid I was to ignore it just because the greater public liked it.
And if you happen to read Real Life, you may notice that Greg Dean has often made the same mistake about a number of shows.
While I do honestly get bothered and highly suspect toward anything that receives so much praise (because I won't lie to you, there are times when that praise is NOT deserved) I have still learned that I should base my opinion off of my own opinion. If a lot of people are talking up something, there might be a reason why, and it is up to me to determine if I like it or not.
The fact that many other people like something does not somehow magically make it bad.
(Well it can make its forum or comment section bad, but not the work itself.)

Besides, we're really just talking about bland lists of comics, not ones where people describe what they like about a comic. And if all you have to go on is a comic's name, then seeing that name appear on multiple lists is going to draw your attention to it. And that is what I was really describing.
Now if you want to have a list of comic where you briefly describe why you like each one, then your "too much praise" argument would be valid in this discussion. But a simple list isn't praise, it's just a list.
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Metruis
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 20, 2013 12:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Marscaleb wrote:

I have still learned that I should base my opinion off of my own opinion. If a lot of people are talking up something, there might be a reason why, and it is up to me to determine if I like it or not.

Yup. Don't assume I'm not. I just don't like fandoms.

I did base my dislike of the Meek (for example) on my own opinion. If something shows up on a lot of links pages, I've probably clicked it and read it. I didn't like it. I have a completely valid reason: I really didn't like the fact that it completely 360'd after chapter one into something COMPLETELY DIFFERENT and then again after chapter two. It was like giving me whiplash and as a reader, I knew it was something I didn't want to commit to reading if it wasn't going to follow a train of thought. So when people talk about how it has great use of hand gestures, yeah, I agree. When they're all "BUT YOU'RE MISSING OUT ON THE BEST EXPERIENCE OF YOUR LIFE" I just... I made my choice. I don't like it.

The reality is, I just don't like fandoms. Fanbois and fangrrls terrify me. This is a lingering psychological problem (probably from "friends" who treated me like crap when I was a young teenager for not having seen various movies) and I don't mind admitting I'm wrong when I find something popular I do like. I don't brush things off without reading them first. I even gave Twilight a try! Nope.

As for the comics mentioned as being popular, well, do you read longform fantasy comics? If you're listing Penny Arcade and Dr. McNinja, maybe not. I think a lot of the ones we're mentioning here are popular longform, not popular shortform comics. I know there's plenty of shortform comics I haven't heard of because longform is my genre of reading choice. Plus, shortform comics don't seem to end up on links pages as often, at least the ones I visit. They seem to be less likely to offer links banners for people's use.

MindChimera wrote:
I wouldn't avoid reading something because of the fanbase, but I'm not fond of those people either. I just can't stomach that childish mentality of "you need to do this or die" anymore, and someone who says that really needs to broaden their horizons.

And Homestuck... is horrendously boring. I haven't read very much of it, but what I've heard is that "it starts out really bad for a long time, then get REALLY good." I'd rather read and support something that starts out interesting and picks up.

Almost 100% of the time I'd agree with you. I actually started reading Homestuck once long ago and gave up because it was so boring and I didn't get it. I'm glad I was encouraged to try again.

The escalation is I think, entirely necessary for the story to work. While I normally support in media res as a storytelling medium, Homestuck gets really, really, really crazy later on, we're talking creation mythos, alternate races, timelines, post-apocalyptic worlds, excessively vast worldbuilding, and a use of the web medium you don't see much of. Without the slow build, dropping someone in the middle of its mythos would be completely cruel. Half the stuff in the boring section ends up coming back to bite you later.

But at its base it is about four kids dicking around playing a video game. I think that's why it's popular. It resonates with people online who really wanted to read a comic that was, at its base, about them and their online friends.

I expect part of my issue with fanz... is when I do finally go and experience what they've raved about it doesn't meet my expectations?

Varethane wrote:
I've been the last one to find out about a popular comic before... repeatedly, even. I think the only comics I found early were The Meek (which I beta-read before it was even in colour), Spindrift, and Ava's Demon (which..... I think is becoming popular now?? It is, right? I hope it is... I'm not gonna take it off my links page though).

Yeah, I hope Ava's Demon is becoming popular. It's so pretty. *-* I've been reading it for a while now.
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Lo (Aquapunk)



Joined: 09 Oct 2009
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 20, 2013 5:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Marscaleb wrote:
Lo (Aquapunk) wrote:
am I really "diminishing" it by not linking to it? Am I personally taking something away from the creators of Oglaf that they rightfully deserve and would not otherwise get if I didn't link to them?


Yeah. Readers.

Isn't the idea of a links page to direct people to something they might not have read before?


But why is this required of me? Who is requiring this? If I am committing a wrongdoing by omitting something I read, then what is the threshold? How do you define "read"? Because I read a lot. In fact, I read more books and academic papers and blogs than webcomics, and they have a far more profound impact on me and my work than webcomics do... am I doing them a disservice by not also including them on my links page? What if, by using the logic you've presented here, my links page ended up being hundreds of entries long? Is that not doing them -all- a disservice by making them all disappear into a wall of links that interests no one?

What if I believe that an anthropologist or a film critic deserves more of a spotlight than Oglaf? Do they not count because it's a webcomics links page?

Don't get me wrong, I think this is a fascinating discussion, but I'm just interested in why you think links pages should be that way and entertaining a scenario of what would happen should your philosophy be taken to a realistic extreme. I mean, you're telling me what to do, after all-- I just want you to know the repercussions of me doing so.
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Marscaleb



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PostPosted: Sat Apr 20, 2013 6:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Metruis wrote:

As for the comics mentioned as being popular, well, do you read longform fantasy comics? If you're listing Penny Arcade and Dr. McNinja, maybe not.


Actually, I don't read Penny Arcade, (I just don't find it funny,) but it is something I would expect to be listed as a popular comic.

I wonder how exactly you would define "longform comics," but working on an assumption of the definition, I would admit that I read few. I have spent a lot of my comic-reading history very unwilling to introduce a new comic to my list, because I felt that I would be reading too many. And most particularly, I spent a very long time unwilling to read comics that I felt needed to be read in whole chapters. (I finally accepted doing this only a few years ago.) And right now, I have a mile-long list of comics that I am still reading through their archives. So most new comics I start reading regularly have not been out too long, since the older ones have a back-log of archives that I'm still going through.
(Side note, I really wish comic rocket would monitor my reading progress if I used the in-page navigation.)

It's not about interest, mind you, more of circumstances.

Lo (Aquapunk) wrote:

But why is this required of me? Who is requiring this? If I am committing a wrongdoing by omitting something I read, then what is the threshold?
...
I mean, you're telling me what to do, after all-- I just want you to know the repercussions of me doing so.


Whoa there buddy, put the knife down; nobody's making you do anything.

There are no requirements about how exactly you must do your links page, only suggestions and commonalities.
And as for why... well, I thought that should be clear with what I stated earlier, but allow me to elaborate on a few points I didn't.

The way I see it, the whole point of having a links page is to (potentially) bring people to find something they would love, or also to help bring attention to something that you love.
For example, I find Dr. McNinja to be awesome, so I share that because I think many people would love to read it, and I want to share that love. I am happy when I read that comic; why would I want anything other than for other people to share in that happiness?
For the second example, I love reading Slightly Damned, and I wish that it would update more than twice a week, and I would shudder to think of the comic going on "indefinite hiatus" because its author decides it's just not worth it and no one reads her work. So, I share links to it hoping to bring her more readers so that she continues to write this comic I love, and maybe even become able to write it full-time.
(And though it should not need to be stated, you an pull your reason as a mix between these two reasons.)

So, combined with my earlier post describing how people may not have heard of something, regardless of how popular it may be, I see a links page as this:
These are comics that I would like you to read (or at least try) which you may or may not have heard of.

Basically, a links list is courtesy that we often extend to others.

Lo (Aquapunk) wrote:

What if I believe that an anthropologist or a film critic deserves more of a spotlight than Oglaf? Do they not count because it's a webcomics links page?


Hell yeah; do it!

Honestly, after I finish putting up all the webcomics I read, I was planning on extending my links list to a number of other websites.
And since the whole idea of a links page is to share things you hope others will enjoy, it is completely arbitrary t constrain such a page to just webcomics. Talk about books! Mention your favorite philosophers! Tell them why they need to watch Breaking Bad and Doctor Who!
It's your darnn site, so why not turn it from a links page into a recommend page? Linking to other webcomics is just a customary action.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 20, 2013 1:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I fall into the camp that uses a links page as a way of sharing "here's what I'm reading right now." So if I visit a webcomic's links page, it's in hopes of seeing what the author(s) like to read. And if I find a lot of similarities between what I like and what they like, then I'm more hopeful that I'll enjoy reading what they like to create. Also, if I see amongst the links a comic I've never heard of, it's a reasonable assumption that I will also enjoy reading that one.

However, this whole thread has been one big guilt trip for me, since my own links page hasn't been updated for years...
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Lo (Aquapunk)



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PostPosted: Sat Apr 20, 2013 11:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Marscaleb wrote:
Lo (Aquapunk) wrote:

But why is this required of me? Who is requiring this? If I am committing a wrongdoing by omitting something I read, then what is the threshold?
...
I mean, you're telling me what to do, after all-- I just want you to know the repercussions of me doing so.


Whoa there buddy, put the knife down; nobody's making you do anything.

There are no requirements about how exactly you must do your links page, only suggestions and commonalities.
And as for why... well, I thought that should be clear with what I stated earlier, but allow me to elaborate on a few points I didn't.

The way I see it, the whole point of having a links page is to (potentially) bring people to find something they would love, or also to help bring attention to something that you love.
For example, I find Dr. McNinja to be awesome, so I share that because I think many people would love to read it, and I want to share that love. I am happy when I read that comic; why would I want anything other than for other people to share in that happiness?
For the second example, I love reading Slightly Damned, and I wish that it would update more than twice a week, and I would shudder to think of the comic going on "indefinite hiatus" because its author decides it's just not worth it and no one reads her work. So, I share links to it hoping to bring her more readers so that she continues to write this comic I love, and maybe even become able to write it full-time.
(And though it should not need to be stated, you an pull your reason as a mix between these two reasons.)

So, combined with my earlier post describing how people may not have heard of something, regardless of how popular it may be, I see a links page as this:
These are comics that I would like you to read (or at least try) which you may or may not have heard of.

Basically, a links list is courtesy that we often extend to others.

Lo (Aquapunk) wrote:

What if I believe that an anthropologist or a film critic deserves more of a spotlight than Oglaf? Do they not count because it's a webcomics links page?


Hell yeah; do it!

Honestly, after I finish putting up all the webcomics I read, I was planning on extending my links list to a number of other websites.
And since the whole idea of a links page is to share things you hope others will enjoy, it is completely arbitrary t constrain such a page to just webcomics. Talk about books! Mention your favorite philosophers! Tell them why they need to watch Breaking Bad and Doctor Who!
It's your darnn site, so why not turn it from a links page into a recommend page? Linking to other webcomics is just a customary action.


Oh no, I'm not getting upset, I'm just indulging you with a little bit of an intellectual exercise about what this philosophy would look like if applied to someone like me.

From where I'm standing, it seems that we have different expectations of links pages-- I don't actually plan on introducing much of anybody to the things I consume through a stack of links thrown off into a corner of my site that I barely remember exists. I promote my reads and things much more extensively elsewhere.

However, if you're not a prolific blogger, or social media user, then yes a links page is going to be much better than nothing.

I don't need to throw up a link to Oglaf if I'm already spending space and time elsewhere actually talking about it.

And at the end of the day, I don't subscribe to your belief that readers are morally obligated to broadcast what they consume anyways. That just seems silly to me.
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 21, 2013 3:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just link to a thread on my forum from my about page, in which I keep the first post sort of up to date with a list of the comics I read...or more realistically, the comics I would read if I actually put in some time to sit down and read comcs. I put in a little text description with each one of why I like it.

Hm speaking of which I need to go and give it a good update and pruning!
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Marscaleb



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PostPosted: Sun Apr 21, 2013 4:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lo (Aquapunk) wrote:

And at the end of the day, I don't subscribe to your belief that readers are morally obligated to broadcast what they consume anyways. That just seems silly to me.


I have no belief that one is morally obligated to "broadcast what they consume." Rather, this is just a logic result of enjoying something.

If there you love something, don't you want to see it flourish? To thrive?
That's all this is coming down to.
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Aglari



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PostPosted: Sun Apr 21, 2013 6:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I pay very little attention to link pages, so I didn't bother making one of my own. When it's simply stuff you think is pretty good, or arbitrarily traded links, it doesn't mean all that much to me.

What I find much more interesting are influence maps, because its guaranteed to have a direct relevance on what you're reading, and can sometimes allow you to better enjoy what you're reading by shedding some light on the elements that make it up. Or it just gives you something else to look at that shares some aspect with what you're already reading.
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 21, 2013 11:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lo(Aquapunk) wrote:
I don't need to throw up a link to Oglaf if I'm already spending space and time elsewhere actually talking about it.

Heh. Funny thing there. The Links page (currently buried and largely obsolete) on Casual Notice started as a lazy form of bookmark (older versions of Internet Explorer didn't have a favorites bar). Eventually, when I got what we'll laughigly call a following, some of my readers asked me why it was so eclectic, and that is what started me writing webcomic reviews (which I did from 2005 until 2010).
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