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[quote="jynksie"]When you look at national awards like the Emmys, Oscars, Academy Awards, People Choice Awards ... and the list goes on... they don't omit past winners from being nominated again the following year for winning the previous. It's like saying "Hey Greys Anatomy, you won once, your done now, but keep on making those shows we'll no longer consider for nomination!" What could be more promising for anyone than to have multiple wins? These awards are designed to give accolades to the best of the best and if the best happens to win more than once, then it's obviously deserved. The more something wins, the harder it is for it continue that trend because judging panels will compare previous years work to current work and it is the creators who have to keep kicking it up a notch to get that next win.[/quote]
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<table border="0" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1" width="100%" class="forumline"> <tr> <th class="thCornerL" width="22%" height="26">Author</th> <th class="thCornerR">Message</th> </tr> <tr> <td width="22%" align="left" valign="top" class="row1"><span class="name"><a name=""></a><b>wendyw</b></span></td> <td class="row1" height="28" valign="top"><table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"> <tr> <td width="100%"><img src="templates/subSilver/images/icon_minipost.gif" width="12" height="9" alt="Post" title="Post" border="0" /><span class="postdetails">Posted: Fri Sep 10, 2010 11:34 pm<span class="gen"> </span> Post subject: </span></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><hr /></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><span class="postbody">Ah, sorry. <br />I just realised it's been over two weeks. <br /> <br />I posted the thread in the Committee Room forum and the results came back with a unanimous decision not to rule out previous winners this year, but there is still an option of putting in a limit on how many times a comic can win. <br /> <br />As the limit isn't going to be just once then it won't effect anything this year so it's something that will continued to be discussed later on and will be included in the feedback form that will be posted on the awards site after the ceremony goes live. That's a subject for another thread though.</span></td> </tr> </table></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2" height="1" class="spaceRow"><img src="templates/subSilver/images/spacer.gif" alt="" width="1" height="1" /></td> </tr> <tr> <td width="22%" align="left" valign="top" class="row2"><span class="name"><a name=""></a><b>rcmonroe</b></span></td> <td class="row2" height="28" valign="top"><table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"> <tr> <td width="100%"><img src="templates/subSilver/images/icon_minipost.gif" width="12" height="9" alt="Post" title="Post" border="0" /><span class="postdetails">Posted: Tue Aug 24, 2010 10:27 am<span class="gen"> </span> Post subject: </span></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><hr /></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><span class="postbody"></span><table width="90%" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="3" border="0" align="center"><tr> <td><span class="genmed"><b>Dutch wrote:</b></span></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="quote">Things like the Oscars, etc, are awarded to finished products, so a person can easily (if they're Meryl Streep) be nominated year after year, because they're being nominated for separate, complete pieces of work, each one different and stand alone (generally). The same webcomic being nominated and (maybe) winning year after year means they're getting several awards of the same kind for the same piece of work which isn't finished yet.</td> </tr></table><span class="postbody"> <br /> <br />Couldn't have said it better myself (if I could have, I would have!) <br /> <br /></span><table width="90%" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="3" border="0" align="center"><tr> <td><span class="genmed"><b>Dutch wrote:</b></span></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="quote">Like RC (I think), I don't mind either way which way these awards decide to go. I probably won't pay much attention to them anyway</td> </tr></table><span class="postbody"> <br /> <br />Indeed. I've already moved on to my next fruitless pursuit.</span></td> </tr> </table></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2" height="1" class="spaceRow"><img src="templates/subSilver/images/spacer.gif" alt="" width="1" height="1" /></td> </tr> <tr> <td width="22%" align="left" valign="top" class="row1"><span class="name"><a name=""></a><b>Dutch</b></span></td> <td class="row1" height="28" valign="top"><table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"> <tr> <td width="100%"><img src="templates/subSilver/images/icon_minipost.gif" width="12" height="9" alt="Post" title="Post" border="0" /><span class="postdetails">Posted: Tue Aug 24, 2010 1:18 am<span class="gen"> </span> Post subject: </span></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><hr /></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><span class="postbody"></span><table width="90%" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="3" border="0" align="center"><tr> <td><span class="genmed"><b>rcmonroe wrote:</b></span></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="quote"></span><table width="90%" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="3" border="0" align="center"><tr> <td><span class="genmed"><b>Dutch wrote:</b></span></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="quote">Other reasonable people may think I'm a complete dill for thinking this though, and fair enough! Some of you may think along the lines 'I've got it once, I'm gonna go for THREE IN A ROW! <br /> <br />I just... don't think it's necessary. You won. You've been recognised. Someone else will be recognised next year because yours doesn't need to be any more. You've climbed that pinnacle. Time to find another mountain. </td> </tr></table><span class="postbody"> <br /> <br />You mean you’re <span style="font-style: italic">not</span> an insecure, attention-whoring egomaniac? Then what are you doing drawing webcomics?</td> </tr></table><span class="postbody"> <br /> <br />Quietly having fun pretending I'm drawing something worthy of, first, my time and effort, and the attention of like minded people! Sorry for not taking webcomics as seriously as we're supposed to <img src="images/smiles/icon_razz.gif" alt="Razz" border="0" /> <br /> <br /></span><table width="90%" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="3" border="0" align="center"><tr> <td><span class="genmed"><b>rcmonroe wrote:</b></span></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="quote"></span><table width="90%" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="3" border="0" align="center"><tr> <td><span class="genmed"><b>Dutch wrote:</b></span></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="quote">You lot like the qords and idea of 'disqualification', eh? <br /> <br />Disqualifying means they've done something wrong or outside the rules. These comics who's been given these pats on the back have clearly won, so they couldn't have done anything wrong or broken any rules to be disqualified. It's not disqualifying. It's recognising they've reached that level of success already.</td> </tr></table><span class="postbody"> <br /> <br />Exactly. Well, one convert is probably more than I could have reasonably hoped for. Thanks, Dutch.</td> </tr></table><span class="postbody"> <br /> <br />Heh. I'm not a convert, I just agree with you. <br /> <br />Things like the Oscars, etc, are awarded to finished products, so a person can easily (if they're Meryl Streep) be nominated year after year, because they're being nominated for separate, complete pieces of work, each one different and stand alone (generally). The same webcomic being nominated and (maybe) winning year after year means they're getting several awards of the same kind for the same piece of work which isn't finished yet. <br /> <br />Like RC (I think), I don't mind either way which way these awards decide to go. I probably won't pay much attention to them anyway (cos I'm an equal opportunity sort of bloke as far as awards go, so it's only fair I'm generally indifferent to all of them! <img src="images/smiles/icon_razz.gif" alt="Razz" border="0" />). I guess that just underlines my response to RC at the top of this post again, eh? <img src="images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif" alt="Very Happy" border="0" /></span></td> </tr> </table></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2" height="1" class="spaceRow"><img src="templates/subSilver/images/spacer.gif" alt="" width="1" height="1" /></td> </tr> <tr> <td width="22%" align="left" valign="top" class="row2"><span class="name"><a name=""></a><b>rcmonroe</b></span></td> <td class="row2" height="28" valign="top"><table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"> <tr> <td width="100%"><img src="templates/subSilver/images/icon_minipost.gif" width="12" height="9" alt="Post" title="Post" border="0" /><span class="postdetails">Posted: Mon Aug 23, 2010 8:32 pm<span class="gen"> </span> Post subject: </span></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><hr /></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><span class="postbody"></span><table width="90%" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="3" border="0" align="center"><tr> <td><span class="genmed"><b>Dutch wrote:</b></span></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="quote">Other reasonable people may think I'm a complete dill for thinking this though, and fair enough! Some of you may think along the lines 'I've got it once, I'm gonna go for THREE IN A ROW! <br /> <br />I just... don't think it's necessary. You won. You've been recognised. Someone else will be recognised next year because yours doesn't need to be any more. You've climbed that pinnacle. Time to find another mountain. </td> </tr></table><span class="postbody"> <br /> <br />You mean you’re <span style="font-style: italic">not</span> an insecure, attention-whoring egomaniac? Then what are you doing drawing webcomics? <br /> <br /></span><table width="90%" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="3" border="0" align="center"><tr> <td><span class="genmed"><b>NekoMusume wrote:</b></span></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="quote">I really don't see how disqualifying a prior winner is required or for that matter, fair, if we were to do this, we would be one of a very small list of awards that do.</td> </tr></table><span class="postbody"> <br /> <br /></span><table width="90%" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="3" border="0" align="center"><tr> <td><span class="genmed"><b>Dutch wrote:</b></span></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="quote">You lot like the qords and idea of 'disqualification', eh? <br /> <br />Disqualifying means they've done something wrong or outside the rules. These comics who's been given these pats on the back have clearly won, so they couldn't have done anything wrong or broken any rules to be disqualified. It's not disqualifying. It's recognising they've reached that level of success already.</td> </tr></table><span class="postbody"> <br /> <br />Exactly. Well, one convert is probably more than I could have reasonably hoped for. Thanks, Dutch. <br /> <br />I’m wondering if what I’m asking people to do here is to think too much outside the box. There seems to be a mindset that there can only be one legitimate type of award—the kind that rewards performance solely within a given year—and that any other definition of an award is somehow a perversion of the One True Way. <br /> <br />The Nobel Prizes, people—probably the most famous and prestigious awards <span style="font-style: italic">in the world</span>. It’s not like I had to look to the arcane and obscure to come up with an example. <br /> <br /></span><table width="90%" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="3" border="0" align="center"><tr> <td><span class="genmed"><b>Chilari wrote:</b></span></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="quote">Allowing comics to be nominated again after they win means that, if that comic remains the best, it wins again. If it is no longer the best, it will not win again. Simple. If another comic surpasses it during that year, then, quite simply, it wins instead of last year's winner.</td> </tr></table><span class="postbody"> <br /> <br />You make it sound like it’s not even a subjective judgment. <br /> <br /></span><table width="90%" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="3" border="0" align="center"><tr> <td><span class="genmed"><b>Novil wrote:</b></span></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="quote">Moreover, the winner is determined by a jury that will contain at least one or two different judges each year. I don’t see the problem.</td> </tr></table><span class="postbody"> <br /> <br />The judges don’t make the nominations. They can only choose among what the nominating public gives them. If it’s the same comics every year, <span style="font-style: italic">that’s</span> the problem. <br /> <br />Look, I don’t enjoy howling into the wind. It’s clear that what I’m expressing is the minority view, to say the least. If you want to stick to what you feel is a more standard definition of an award, it really is okay, nobody’s getting hurt. Let’s move on.</span></td> </tr> </table></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2" height="1" class="spaceRow"><img src="templates/subSilver/images/spacer.gif" alt="" width="1" height="1" /></td> </tr> <tr> <td width="22%" align="left" valign="top" class="row1"><span class="name"><a name=""></a><b>Novil</b></span></td> <td class="row1" height="28" valign="top"><table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"> <tr> <td width="100%"><img src="templates/subSilver/images/icon_minipost.gif" width="12" height="9" alt="Post" title="Post" border="0" /><span class="postdetails">Posted: Mon Aug 23, 2010 4:51 pm<span class="gen"> </span> Post subject: </span></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><hr /></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><span class="postbody">Even fanboys are usually getting tired after the third win in a row and vote for another comic they like the next year. <br /> <br />Moreover, the winner is determined by a jury that will contain at least one or two different judges each year. <br /> <br />So I don’t see a problem.</span></td> </tr> </table></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2" height="1" class="spaceRow"><img src="templates/subSilver/images/spacer.gif" alt="" width="1" height="1" /></td> </tr> <tr> <td width="22%" align="left" valign="top" class="row2"><span class="name"><a name=""></a><b>Chilari</b></span></td> <td class="row2" height="28" valign="top"><table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"> <tr> <td width="100%"><img src="templates/subSilver/images/icon_minipost.gif" width="12" height="9" alt="Post" title="Post" border="0" /><span class="postdetails">Posted: Mon Aug 23, 2010 3:57 pm<span class="gen"> </span> Post subject: </span></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><hr /></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><span class="postbody">Allowing comics to be nominated again after they win means that, if that comic remains the best, it wins again. If it is no longer the best, it will not win again. Simple. If another comic surpasses it during that year, then, quite simply, it wins instead of last year's winner. But if last year's winner is still the best, but not allowed to be nominated because it's already won, then the second best will get an award which proclaims that it's the best, when it isn't, which I don't think is fair on the comic that really is the best and the creators of that comic. Repeated wins would demonstrate that a comic is continuing to be good, even that it is improving if other comics also nominated are very good too.</span></td> </tr> </table></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2" height="1" class="spaceRow"><img src="templates/subSilver/images/spacer.gif" alt="" width="1" height="1" /></td> </tr> <tr> <td width="22%" align="left" valign="top" class="row1"><span class="name"><a name=""></a><b>Dutch</b></span></td> <td class="row1" height="28" valign="top"><table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"> <tr> <td width="100%"><img src="templates/subSilver/images/icon_minipost.gif" width="12" height="9" alt="Post" title="Post" border="0" /><span class="postdetails">Posted: Mon Aug 23, 2010 2:50 pm<span class="gen"> </span> Post subject: </span></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><hr /></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><span class="postbody">You lot like the qords and idea of 'disqualification', eh? <br /> <br />Disqualifying means they've done something wrong or outside the rules. These comics who's been given these pats on the back have clearly won, so they couldn't have done anything wrong or broken any rules to be disqualified. It's not disqualifying. It's recognising they've reached that level of success already.</span></td> </tr> </table></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2" height="1" class="spaceRow"><img src="templates/subSilver/images/spacer.gif" alt="" width="1" height="1" /></td> </tr> <tr> <td width="22%" align="left" valign="top" class="row2"><span class="name"><a name=""></a><b>NekoMusume</b></span></td> <td class="row2" height="28" valign="top"><table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"> <tr> <td width="100%"><img src="templates/subSilver/images/icon_minipost.gif" width="12" height="9" alt="Post" title="Post" border="0" /><span class="postdetails">Posted: Mon Aug 23, 2010 2:30 pm<span class="gen"> </span> Post subject: </span></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><hr /></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><span class="postbody">I really don't see how disqualifying a prior winner is required or for that matter, fair, if we were to do this, we would be one of a very small list of awards that do. <br /> <br />If a comic is the the best of the bunch, then so be it regardless of if the comic was the best last year too.</span></td> </tr> </table></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2" height="1" class="spaceRow"><img src="templates/subSilver/images/spacer.gif" alt="" width="1" height="1" /></td> </tr> <tr> <td width="22%" align="left" valign="top" class="row1"><span class="name"><a name=""></a><b>Dutch</b></span></td> <td class="row1" height="28" valign="top"><table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"> <tr> <td width="100%"><img src="templates/subSilver/images/icon_minipost.gif" width="12" height="9" alt="Post" title="Post" border="0" /><span class="postdetails">Posted: Mon Aug 23, 2010 1:39 pm<span class="gen"> </span> Post subject: </span></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><hr /></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><span class="postbody">For what it's worth, I'm actually with RC on this one. True, I agree that if a project is allowed to be nominated after winning, and gets voted as the best again in whatever category it's nominated in, then fair enough. It won because it probably deserved it (I could talk about Morgan Freeman being ignored for pulling off a fantastic and important representation of Nelson Mandela because they decided to give the best actor Oscar to some German bloke for playing... well... some other German bloke... but I won't <img src="images/smiles/icon_razz.gif" alt="Razz" border="0" /> ). <br /> <br />But... and shoot me down if this isn't what most other reasonable people would think... surely if 'your' webcomic won this award (or something like it), then you wouldn't really feel the need to have it win again and again, would you? <br /> <br />Personally, I'd be very appreciative of my quiet, humble little readership if they nominated me for something and people gave it a shot and thought 'you know what, this isn't what we're used to seeing being churned out in your regular webcomics, I reckon this one deserves my vote' and made it a winner. I'd be absolutely bloody stoked, to be honest. <br /> <br />But... well... I wouldn't see the point of it getting nominated again the next year (or the one after (or five years after that when it's still going and approaching 2000 strips... gawd...)). It's been recognised. Anyone can click back through that link 'past winners' and find it, because, surely, if it's a past winner, then it's worthy of following the link and giving it a shot. <br /> <br />Move on to another award from some other joint, eh? <br /> <br />Other reasonable people may think I'm a complete dill for thinking this though, and fair enough! <img src="images/smiles/icon_smile.gif" alt="Smile" border="0" /> Some of you may think along the lines 'I've got it once, I'm gonna go for THREE IN A ROW! <br /> <br />I just... don't think it's necessary. You won. You've been recognised. Someone else will be recognised next year because yours doesn't need to be any more. You've climbed that pinnacle. Time to find another mountain. <br /> <br /> <br /> <br />I saw last year's nominations when last year's awards were under way. I looked at them and generally thought 'oh, more of the same' and didn't bother going back to vote or even see who won.</span></td> </tr> </table></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2" height="1" class="spaceRow"><img src="templates/subSilver/images/spacer.gif" alt="" width="1" height="1" /></td> </tr> <tr> <td width="22%" align="left" valign="top" class="row2"><span class="name"><a name=""></a><b>Dutch</b></span></td> <td class="row2" height="28" valign="top"><table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"> <tr> <td width="100%"><img src="templates/subSilver/images/icon_minipost.gif" width="12" height="9" alt="Post" title="Post" border="0" /><span class="postdetails">Posted: Mon Aug 23, 2010 1:23 pm<span class="gen"> </span> Post subject: </span></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><hr /></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><span class="postbody"></span><table width="90%" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="3" border="0" align="center"><tr> <td><span class="genmed"><b>rcmonroe wrote:</b></span></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="quote"></span><table width="90%" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="3" border="0" align="center"><tr> <td><span class="genmed"><b>Dutch wrote:</b></span></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="quote">No, RC, I agree. There's plenty of work out there that's good enough to win things like this but get drowned out by the static of the thousands of others around them. I'd like to think I'm one of them, to be honest.</td> </tr></table><span class="postbody"> <br /> <br />Then step up and be heard! Speak up for defining an award you <span style="font-style: italic">could</span> win!</td> </tr></table><span class="postbody"> <br /> <br />Heh. Tried that last year here. Wasn't heard. <img src="images/smiles/icon_razz.gif" alt="Razz" border="0" /></span></td> </tr> </table></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2" height="1" class="spaceRow"><img src="templates/subSilver/images/spacer.gif" alt="" width="1" height="1" /></td> </tr> <tr> <td width="22%" align="left" valign="top" class="row1"><span class="name"><a name=""></a><b>wendyw</b></span></td> <td class="row1" height="28" valign="top"><table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"> <tr> <td width="100%"><img src="templates/subSilver/images/icon_minipost.gif" width="12" height="9" alt="Post" title="Post" border="0" /><span class="postdetails">Posted: Mon Aug 23, 2010 12:56 pm<span class="gen"> </span> Post subject: </span></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><hr /></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><span class="postbody">I am still not convinced that this is a rule we should include, but the issue has been put to the committee and they have the ability to overrule me on it. A committee decision will be announced in this thread in two weeks from now. <br /> <br />In the meantime feel free to continue the public discussion going here as well.</span></td> </tr> </table></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2" height="1" class="spaceRow"><img src="templates/subSilver/images/spacer.gif" alt="" width="1" height="1" /></td> </tr> <tr> <td width="22%" align="left" valign="top" class="row2"><span class="name"><a name=""></a><b>rcmonroe</b></span></td> <td class="row2" height="28" valign="top"><table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"> <tr> <td width="100%"><img src="templates/subSilver/images/icon_minipost.gif" width="12" height="9" alt="Post" title="Post" border="0" /><span class="postdetails">Posted: Mon Aug 23, 2010 11:27 am<span class="gen"> </span> Post subject: </span></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><hr /></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><span class="postbody"></span><table width="90%" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="3" border="0" align="center"><tr> <td><span class="genmed"><b>Zoe Robinson wrote:</b></span></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="quote"></span><table width="90%" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="3" border="0" align="center"><tr> <td><span class="genmed"><b>rcmonroe wrote:</b></span></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="quote">Exactly. They’re disqualified for a valid reason, just as past winners would be disqualified for a valid reason.</td> </tr></table><span class="postbody"> <br /> <br />I'm not sure it is a valid reason. It feels, to me, like artificial throttling of the nominations.</td> </tr></table><span class="postbody"> <br /> <br />I don’t see anything artificial about it. Is the Nobel Prize artificial? All I’m suggesting is making it one type of award (a “lifetime achievement” award like the Nobel Prize) rather than another type of award (a “this year’s best” award like the Academy Awards). <br /> <br /></span><table width="90%" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="3" border="0" align="center"><tr> <td><span class="genmed"><b>Quote:</b></span></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="quote">The response to being prevented from nominating comics people have heard of will not be "oh, I'd better go and find some other comics I like, then". It will be "sod this. If I can't vote for who I want, I'm not voting". <br /> <br />If people can't vote for the comics they've heard of, the awards will not work. Don't ask people to put effort in to voting, they won't do it.</td> </tr></table><span class="postbody"> <br /> <br />I won’t try to predict what all people will do, but I suspect most people read more than three webcomics, and having seen their favorite win one year, may welcome the opportunity to nominate their 2nd, 3rd, and 4th favorites the next. It's not “Go find some new comics,” it's “What else do you like?” That’s the point of allowing people to vote for three webcomics, isn’t it? To substantiate the diversity of their opinions? <br /> <br /></span><table width="90%" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="3" border="0" align="center"><tr> <td><span class="genmed"><b>Quote:</b></span></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="quote">You have far more faith in humanity than I do. When I think of restricting the vote, which is what you're arguing for, I think people will not bother. Don't try to tell them they can't vote for their favourites this year because they won last year, it will only piss people off and stop them bothering to vote, or even pay attention.</td> </tr></table><span class="postbody"> <br /> <br />I think it will only piss off the people who don’t understand what you’re doing and why you’re dong it. You’d make it very clear. You’d have some verbiage on the website (prominently displayed, so no one could miss it without trying real hard) like: <br /> <br />“In the interest of recognizing excellence in webcomics wherever it may exist, the TWCL Awards have adopted the policy of making each Award one-time honor. We feel this will promote recognition of the many worthy webcomics in the field today” <br /> <br />…or something. Make it clear what you’re doing, make it clear why you’re doing it. If people refuse to understand, they refuse to understand. Eliminating the idiot vote seems like a worthy goal to me. <br /> <br />As far as people paying attention to the awards, I think nothing will make people lose interest faster than the same comics winning year in and year out. I suspect that was one of the things that killed the WCCAs.</span></td> </tr> </table></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2" height="1" class="spaceRow"><img src="templates/subSilver/images/spacer.gif" alt="" width="1" height="1" /></td> </tr> <tr> <td width="22%" align="left" valign="top" class="row1"><span class="name"><a name=""></a><b>Zoe Robinson</b></span></td> <td class="row1" height="28" valign="top"><table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"> <tr> <td width="100%"><img src="templates/subSilver/images/icon_minipost.gif" width="12" height="9" alt="Post" title="Post" border="0" /><span class="postdetails">Posted: Mon Aug 23, 2010 10:39 am<span class="gen"> </span> Post subject: </span></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><hr /></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><span class="postbody"></span><table width="90%" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="3" border="0" align="center"><tr> <td><span class="genmed"><b>rcmonroe wrote:</b></span></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="quote">Exactly. They’re disqualified for a valid reason, just as past winners would be disqualified for a valid reason.</td> </tr></table><span class="postbody"> <br /> <br />I'm not sure it is a valid reason. It feels, to me, like artificial throttling of the nominations. <br /> <br /></span><table width="90%" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="3" border="0" align="center"><tr> <td><span class="genmed"><b>rcmonroe wrote:</b></span></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="quote">The people have spoken in a clear voice. They’re saying “we’re going to nominate the same comics every year; the ones we’ve <span style="font-style: italic">heard</span> of”</td> </tr></table><span class="postbody"> <br /> <br />The response to being prevented from nominating comics people have heard of will not be "oh, I'd better go and find some other comics I like, then". It will be "sod this. If I can't vote for who I want, I'm not voting". <br /> <br />If people can't vote for the comics they've heard of, the awards will not work. Don't ask people to put effort in to voting, they won't do it. <br /> <br /></span><table width="90%" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="3" border="0" align="center"><tr> <td><span class="genmed"><b>rcmonroe wrote:</b></span></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="quote">It’s not like there are only six comics that people like. But if we give them their award and in effect get them out of the way, we give other comics a chance that will otherwise never have one.</td> </tr></table><span class="postbody"> <br /> <br />You have far more faith in humanity than I do. When I think of restricting the vote, which is what you're arguing for, I think people will not bother. Don't try to tell them they can't vote for their favourites this year because they won last year, it will only piss people off and stop them bothering to vote, or even pay attention.</span></td> </tr> </table></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2" height="1" class="spaceRow"><img src="templates/subSilver/images/spacer.gif" alt="" width="1" height="1" /></td> </tr> <tr> <td width="22%" align="left" valign="top" class="row2"><span class="name"><a name=""></a><b>rcmonroe</b></span></td> <td class="row2" height="28" valign="top"><table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"> <tr> <td width="100%"><img src="templates/subSilver/images/icon_minipost.gif" width="12" height="9" alt="Post" title="Post" border="0" /><span class="postdetails">Posted: Mon Aug 23, 2010 8:49 am<span class="gen"> </span> Post subject: </span></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><hr /></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><span class="postbody">Well then. I guess this is what is known as "being outnumbered". I'll shoot a few more salvos your way anyway, just to see if anything sticks. <br /> <br />But before I address specific concerns, let me again make one thing extremely clear: <br /> <br /><span style="font-weight: bold">This is not about “fixing” the awards so that obscure comics can win them instead of the far more “deserving” popular comics. It’s merely a matter of <span style="font-style: italic">defining</span> the awards as something you can only win once, because the climate in which webcomics exist makes it <span style="font-style: italic">appropriate</span> to do so.</span> <br /> <br /></span><table width="90%" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="3" border="0" align="center"><tr> <td><span class="genmed"><b>wendyw wrote:</b></span></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="quote">The problem with banning a comic from winning the same award multiple years is that you essentially are telling the people nominating comics who they can and can't nominate</td> </tr></table><span class="postbody"> <br /> <br />That is correct. You’re telling them “you can only nominate comics that are eligible to be nominated.” Since there would be a valid <span style="font-style: italic">reason</span> (which would presumably be prominently displayed on the site) that the ineligible comics are ineligible, I don’t see what the problem is. <br /> <br /></span><table width="90%" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="3" border="0" align="center"><tr> <td><span class="genmed"><b>Quote:</b></span></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="quote">We're already disqualifying some popular comics each year by making anything that the judges for the year have worked on inelligible.</td> </tr></table><span class="postbody"> <br /> <br />Exactly. They’re disqualified for a valid reason, just as past winners would be disqualified for a valid reason. <br /> <br /></span><table width="90%" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="3" border="0" align="center"><tr> <td><span class="genmed"><b>Quote:</b></span></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="quote">The fact that the judges for each award will vary from year to year, along with the points based voting system judges use, should go some way to reducing any potential issues. <br /> <br />I'm not against making a rule on the subject at a later date if the committee think it's neccesary, but as much as having the same people win over and over is not ideal, neither in my opinion is putting too many restrictions on who people can nominate, so unless there are signs that the restrictions will be neccesary I'd like to avoid them.</td> </tr></table><span class="postbody"> <br /> <br />It’s <span style="font-style: italic">one more</span> restriction. As for the “signs that the restrictions will be necessary”, I think all the signs you need can be found in the results of last year’s TWCL Awards and in the previous WCCA’s: <br /> <br />2009 TWCL Finalists “Best Comic” <br />Girl Genius <br />Gunnerkrigg Court <br />Nedroid <br />Questionable Content <br />Rival Angels <br /> <br />2008 WCCA Finalists “Outstanding Comic” <br />Achewood <br />Girl Genius <br />Gunnerkrigg Court <br />The Perry Bible Fellowship <br />The Phoenix Requiem <br /> <br />2007 WCCA Finalists “Outstanding Comic” <br />Girl Genius <br />Gunnerkrigg Court <br />Narbonic <br />The Perry Bible Fellowship <br />Scary Go Round <br />Templar, Arizona <br /> <br />2006 WCCA Finalists “Outstanding Comic” <br />Achewood <br />Girl Genius <br />Fetus X <br />Inverloch <br />Narbonic <br />The Perry Bible Fellowship <br />Scary Go Round <br /> <br />And so on, and so on. Girl Genius is in there every year; Gunnerkrigg Court is in there three years in a row; Achewood’s in there twice; Inverloch ended and its creator started The Phoenix Requiem—boom, it gets nominated. The Perry Bible Fellowship, Scary Go Round and Narbonic were nominated multiple times, until they stopped updating; otherwise there’s no reason to believe they wouldn’t have continued to be nominated. I’m not saying “these comics didn’t deserve to be nominated”; I’m saying “Is that <span style="font-style: italic">all</span>?” <br /> <br />The people have spoken in a clear voice. They’re saying “we’re going to nominate the same comics every year; the ones we’ve <span style="font-style: italic">heard</span> of” <br /> <br /></span><table width="90%" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="3" border="0" align="center"><tr> <td><span class="genmed"><b>jynksie wrote:</b></span></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="quote">When you look at national awards like the Emmys, Oscars, Academy Awards, People Choice Awards ... and the list goes on... they don't omit past winners from being nominated again the following year for winning the previous. It's like saying "Hey Greys Anatomy, you won once, your done now, but keep on making those shows we'll no longer consider for nomination!"</td> </tr></table><span class="postbody"> <br /> <br />Those awards, and the rules that govern them, are appropriate for those media. Webcomics are different. There are dozens of films released each year; a devoted member of the Academy can make him or herself familiar with all or most of them (and actually, he doesn’t have to, since a movie has to apply to be considered, reducing the number of films the voters have to familiarize themselves with). <br /> <br />But there are <span style="font-style: italic">thousands</span> of webcomics. Nobody, no matter how dedicated they are, can claim to be familiar with all of them, or even anything more than a tiny percentage of them. Essentially what the current structure of the TWCL Awards says is, “you can only be considered if you’re one of a handful of very popular webcomics.” <br /> <br /></span><table width="90%" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="3" border="0" align="center"><tr> <td><span class="genmed"><b>Quote:</b></span></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="quote">What could be more promising for anyone than to have multiple wins? These awards are designed to give accolades to the best of the best and if the best happens to win more than once, then it's obviously deserved.</td> </tr></table><span class="postbody"> <br /> <br />Obviously. Note that I didn’t say it wasn’t deserved. In fact, I said it <span style="font-style: italic">was</span> deserved. That’s not the problem; the problem is that only the very, very popular comics have a chance to be nominated, and there are other comics deserving of recognition too. <br /> <br /></span><table width="90%" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="3" border="0" align="center"><tr> <td><span class="genmed"><b>Dutch wrote:</b></span></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="quote">No, RC, I agree. There's plenty of work out there that's good enough to win things like this but get drowned out by the static of the thousands of others around them. I'd like to think I'm one of them, to be honest.</td> </tr></table><span class="postbody"> <br /> <br />Then step up and be heard! Speak up for defining an award you <span style="font-style: italic">could</span> win! <br /> <br /></span><table width="90%" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="3" border="0" align="center"><tr> <td><span class="genmed"><b>Quote:</b></span></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="quote">The thing here is that when these things seem to come up for nomination rounds, it seems it so much easier just to jump on the big ones (or the second tier big ones) and put their name forward again. If you put forward a suggestion that people nominate ones outside of those ranges for work they think is suitable but not so well known, then when you come around to the voting process, you probably have the issue of voters voting for the ones they know because we can't be reading through entire archives of little known strips to make a legitimate decision on each. <br /> <br />That's possibly a little cynical and a lazy view, but I don't doubt the lesser known nominations in these sorts of things are behind the eight ball when it comes to voting because the majority of people won't want to spend their weekends going through all these archives to give a fair opinion. It's easier to vote for the one you know and like and only give passing reference to the others.</td> </tr></table><span class="postbody"> <br /> <br />I don’t blame the voters, I blame the voting system. I don’t think people vote for the popular comics because they’re lazy or because they don’t do their homework; they vote for them because they like them. But they might like some of the lesser known ones too, if they knew about them. <br /> <br /></span><table width="90%" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="3" border="0" align="center"><tr> <td><span class="genmed"><b>Quote:</b></span></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="quote">That said... I stopped following these sorts of things years ago... mainly for the reasons I said above. I don't have the time or inclination to read through that many webcomics!</td> </tr></table><span class="postbody"> <br /> <br />Neither does anyone else. Which is why so few webcomics “break through”. Ever notice that almost <span style="font-style: italic">all</span> of the most popular webcomics are the ones that have been around for seven or eight years or longer? And that except in the rarest of cases, the only exceptions to that are the new creations of previous popular comics (e.g. Inverloch/The Phoenix Requiem)? People are reluctant to pick up on newer webcomics, because there’s just so damn many of them. It’s overwhelming. <br /> <br /></span><table width="90%" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="3" border="0" align="center"><tr> <td><span class="genmed"><b>Zoe Robinson wrote:</b></span></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="quote">While I agree that there's always the chance that popular comics will win year in, year out, I don't see that changing unless you remove the public vote. Readers like what they like and you can't do anything about that.</td> </tr></table><span class="postbody"> <br /> <br />Well, under the current voting structure, the public only <span style="font-style: italic">nominates</span> the comics; ideally the fact that you have qualified judges making the final selections allows for the cream to rise to the top. I’m not suggesting saying to the people, “no, you’re wrong, you can’t nominate this again because you have no taste;” I’m suggesting saying “right, we gave that one the award last year; what else you got?” It’s not like there are only six comics that people like. But if we give them their award and in effect get them out of the way, we give other comics a chance that will otherwise never have one. <br /> <br /></span><table width="90%" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="3" border="0" align="center"><tr> <td><span class="genmed"><b>Quote:</b></span></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="quote">Stopping previous winners from winning again would turn the awards into something else entirely.</td> </tr></table><span class="postbody"> <br /> <br />Yes, that’s exactly right. It will turn them into something more akin to the Nobel Prize as opposed to the Golden Globes. It will turn them into something that makes sense for <span style="font-style: italic">webcomics</span>, as opposed to making sense for movies or TV shows. There are thousands of webcomics, just as there are thousands of physicists, economists, statesmen, etc. Einstein won <span style="font-style: italic">one</span> Nobel Prize. Is it because he only “deserved” one? No; it’s because the voting structure of the Nobel Prize recognizes the climate of the fields in which they give awards. It recognizes that there are many deserving nominees, and that giving the same person the same award every year accomplishes very little of value. <br /> <br /></span><table width="90%" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="3" border="0" align="center"><tr> <td><span class="genmed"><b>Quote:</b></span></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="quote">Instead of being what the readers and judges both think is the best comic this year, it will become "the best of the rest - what we think is great this year, barring everything we've already mentioned in previous years".</td> </tr></table><span class="postbody"> <br /> <br />Again, It’s not “banning all the good comics so the crappy ones can have a chance too”, it’s a recognition of the fact that the voting structure as it is will not <span style="font-style: italic">allow</span> anything but the most popular comics to be nominated, and that there are other deserving nominees. <br /> <br />This is just a matter of <span style="font-style: italic">defining</span> the awards as a one-time thing. It’s not even a <span style="font-style: italic">re</span>definition, since there’s <span style="font-style: italic">no</span> definition now.</span></td> </tr> </table></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2" height="1" class="spaceRow"><img src="templates/subSilver/images/spacer.gif" alt="" width="1" height="1" /></td> </tr> <tr> <td width="22%" align="left" valign="top" class="row1"><span class="name"><a name=""></a><b>Zoe Robinson</b></span></td> <td class="row1" height="28" valign="top"><table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"> <tr> <td width="100%"><img src="templates/subSilver/images/icon_minipost.gif" width="12" height="9" alt="Post" title="Post" border="0" /><span class="postdetails">Posted: Fri Aug 20, 2010 8:43 am<span class="gen"> </span> Post subject: </span></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><hr /></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><span class="postbody">While I agree that there's always the chance that popular comics will win year in, year out, I don't see that changing unless you remove the public vote. Readers like what they like and you can't do anything about that. <br /> <br />Stopping previous winners from winning again would turn the awards into something else entirely. Instead of being what the readers and judges both think is the best comic this year, it will become "the best of the rest - what we think is great this year, barring everything we've already mentioned in previous years". <br /> <br />This is "the webcomic list awards" not "now that's what I call webcomics".</span></td> </tr> </table></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2" height="1" class="spaceRow"><img src="templates/subSilver/images/spacer.gif" alt="" width="1" height="1" /></td> </tr> </table>
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